lane
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 164
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Post by lane on Nov 9, 2011 15:07:09 GMT -6
Clint, The thing is there are some people racing in red bracket that do have the hp to pull NA 944's down the 14 - 1 & 7 - 8 straights only to be gathered up in the corners. When we first started the bracket class there was a lot of parity in the field but here of late we have people throwing some serious money to win a trophy! Which I don't have a problem with them spending money except that it does screw up the class racing. BTW if I'm racing I want to win.
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Post by turbot on Nov 9, 2011 15:08:09 GMT -6
i not trying to prove a point. i have not had my car on the dyno so i really don't know what kind of power it makes and you just wasted god knows how much time researching all that for what?! my car has never broken out and i push the living crap out of it. i go off what happens on track...there is no way in hell i have the 25% advantage you are suggesting in the numbers...it would show even more on the straights. you of all folks should know it ain't all about the power\weight ratios. please do not research any further b/c i truly can give a rats a$$ about the particulars. the 944's are great cars and if i could drive one i would...there are plenty reasons you don't see a bunch of 4-door sentras at the track. I didn't do any research, I went by what you told me and the numbers for our cars that I know off the top of my head. I did make a slight mistake, the 944 SP2 is 2600 minimum, not 2650. 2650 is what I say when people ask because the gray car has the turbo calipers and it's a 100 lb. penalty, so 2700 in that form. Splitting the difference, I said 2650..., regardless, still 20 lbs. per hp unless you follow the liberal PCA output numbers. Wasn't really any trouble at all though Clint, I type fast. BTW - we aren't really talking cars here..., we never were. T
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Post by turbot on Nov 9, 2011 15:10:36 GMT -6
Calm down buddy . Just because their is a power to weight advantage on paper doesn't mean that the platform can take full advantage of that difference ie the rear suspension you were talking about.... dude if you know me i don't get worked up over anything out my control. Hey, if nothing else, we have created enough interest for 200 page views.... ;D T
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Post by melan45 on Nov 9, 2011 15:28:47 GMT -6
like google needs more money...lane if someone is spending money i can assure you it isn't gary or myself. i haven't touched my car in 3 years unless something broke or needed maintenance...i upgraded my front brake pads from a street\race pad to an ht10 for the last two races. i am not sure my car even starts right now but i will dust it off this weekend so i can start getting ready to race within the next three months. lane are you planning to make the next couple races?
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nine44s
I just want to go fast!
I <3 Porsches
Posts: 204
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Post by nine44s on Nov 9, 2011 16:22:55 GMT -6
Hey wheres the moderator at I think we're OT
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Post by turbot on Nov 9, 2011 16:53:50 GMT -6
OK, I think this'll be my parting shot for the day and I'll try and keep the numbers and equations to a minimum to clear any murkiness for the people following this thread that aren't real clear on where we are coming from. Pretty sure Lane is coming from the same place but I can't speak for all people who track 944s that could care less where they finish. Clint, this isn't aimed at you but listen, me, Eon, Lane at least...we are as grassroots as you or Gary, trust me. We work hard for our money and you won't find us showing up with new sets of tires every race either. Y'all have a different angle on how to get around our particular track fast and that's cool, it just so happens that this is the format of bracket racing based on time. I think it's pretty indisputable that the GCRS series is a rarity, whereas most, if not all sanctioning bodies base class on the weight vs. power output to place you among equally competitive cars (read - static capability - driver excluded). Put the shoe on the other foot for a second and pretend that you just started mid pack, bested 3-4 cars at the green and don't even have to look to know that all four of those cars that you just out drove for a few corners are all going to blast by you before T1. That you can catch them up again by T10 but they squirt away with a power and weight advantage every time you get close, driving your car at 110%. If you accept the fact....and it is a fact, that sanctioning bodies DO divide cars on power/weight ratio, and take the numbers that I posted earlier (yours were your numbers), for you to show up with your Nissan as-is currently in GCRS form, you would have to add 1000 lbs. to it to fall into the same power/weight class as a 944. Rebstock is lighter than you and probably makes more power. I won't do the math because I don't know his numbers but a guess would be 12-1500 lbs. that he'd have to add to equal the performance index of our cars. Think about that for a minute. You load 950 lbs. into your Sentra to equal 20lbs/hp and what kind of lap time around CGB do you think you could turn...? Leave your car weight and setup the same as it sits and back your throttle plate back to where it makes 30% (you weigh less) less power. Y'all picked the cars y'all have and so do we, more power to y'all (pun intended.. ), we'll call it "diversity". Like it or not, in it's form, the CRX and the Sentra have a 25% hp/weight advantage if you show up at a NASA event and want to run the same class as a 944 and neither car can muster a faster lap than 1.24 around CGB....? It's like two people running a 1000 yard dash, one in the latest Nikes and one in flip flops, we both cross the tape relatively closely and the one with the racing shoes declares a glorious victory based on speed and skill. T
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Post by turbot on Nov 9, 2011 16:54:59 GMT -6
Hey wheres the moderator at I think we're OT Nope, I think you missed the train....we are on topic... And 'General Chat' appears to be un-moderated.... T
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lane
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 164
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Post by lane on Nov 9, 2011 17:17:06 GMT -6
Clint, No I don't have any plans on running the next few races.
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Post by melan45 on Nov 10, 2011 7:59:25 GMT -6
Put the shoe on the other foot for a second and pretend that you just started mid pack, bested 3-4 cars at the green and don't even have to look to know that all four of those cars that you just out drove for a few corners are all going to blast by you before T1. Like it or not, in it's form, the CRX and the Sentra have a 25% hp/weight advantage if you show up at a NASA event and want to run the same class as a 944 and neither car can muster a faster lap than 1.24 around CGB....? It's like two people running a 1000 yard dash, one in the latest Nikes and one in flip flops, we both cross the tape relatively closely and the one with the racing shoes declares a glorious victory based on speed and skill. T shouldn't this be all directed at all the other porsche guys that are on record for breaking out numerous times and still race in bracket? gary\i haven't broken out in the 3 yrs i have raced? eon can you find video of me blasting by you before turn1? you won't find any... again 4master whooped up on the field back in the day so how did he do it? so you know the weaknesses and strengths of cars pretty well. i get what you are saying, so find more grip and go through turns 4-6 and 8-14 corners that much faster? did you watch the race eon and i swapped places back and forth...i think it was one of the races a red 944 blew an engine going into 14 in 2010. i did some reading on a few sentra boards and there are plenty of dyno runs with header, cia, and exhaust modifications which is all that has been done to my car and the averaged was 155whp and stock was 145. so just like i was stating, based off my experience running against 944's for the last 3 years, there is no way in hell i have a 25% power to weight advantage. i am not saying i don't have an advantage in the power department its just not as drastic as your are stating. i like racing all the guys with more power its just more motivation to show you can run mistake free and be right in the fun....mike, denis, henry, and julius. these guys all have faster cars on paper, but all have strengths and weaknesses. how come you guys don't just stay spec racing?
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Post by turbot on Nov 10, 2011 8:58:06 GMT -6
LOL, a lot of questions, and I won't have as much free time as yesterday, shouldn't this be all directed at all the other porsche guys that are on record for breaking out numerous times and still race in bracket? gary\i haven't broken out in the 3 yrs i have raced? Nobody else has popped in here, you posted in, and I just replied to whatever you wrote. I think, at least once or twice, I even made sure to say "this is not directed at you specifically". When you do look at some videos though Clint, the one in this thread included, that's the question we are asking here....with such an advantage (watch GR jump away post corner) (you in the video in the next answer), why aren't these car breaking out when a 944, being pushed hard is a 1.24..? eon can you find video of me blasting by you before turn1? you won't find any... Ha ha, he has way too many videos for me to go scan through, maybe he knows of one, but for old times sake, I was just looking at a few old ones last night.....here's one of you walking Gary Small (same SP2 spec) from behind, so, around 3 car lengths, and gapping Eon's car by at least the same space - vimeo.com/10051134again 4master whooped up on the field back in the day so how did he do it? I don't know, maybe he made all the races and others didn't..? These are questions y'all should be asking yourselves because that's what we don't know the answer to.....how are y'all not running away way out in the distance and breaking out when there is an obvious advantage over competitors that are already running 1.24s. so you know the weaknesses and strengths of cars pretty well. i get what you are saying, so find more grip and go through turns 4-6 and 8-14 corners that much faster? Fair enough question.....for two opposing cars to run similar lap times, with one of the two having the P/W advantage, the second car ALREADY has to be way quicker in the sections you mentioned just to negate the deficit from the straight bits. If, let's say, you are on my bumper into T10, and I was able to hustle a gap of 3 car lengths by apex of T14 (unlikely), you could STILL pass me by T1. That's pretty depressing from our standpoint. So basically, it's understood that the momentum cars (944-240) have to be going faster through the turns than the other to have a result of a same lap time as the ones faster on the straights right...? Yet, using the example of the video Eon posted here, some people will come out and say "he should have waited"......!?!?! Waited for what....? For Rebstock to use +60 hp and a 600 lb. weight advantage to squirt away again....? So rare are the chances of a 944 at such a deficit in performance, you are forced to take every chance that presents itself. What's more, two other opportunities to force a move between T4-5 and Ts 9-10 were patiently let go until the ill-fated drive through the grass where a legit move (at least bumpers overlapped) was attempted.....promptly rewarded with a forced evasive maneuver that cost an oil cooler, a fan and a radiator support. Why should we even continue to bother....? did you watch the race eon and i swapped places back and forth...i think it was one of the races a red 944 blew an engine going into 14 in 2010. i did some reading on a few sentra boards and there are plenty of dyno runs with header, cia, and exhaust modifications which is all that has been done to my car and the averaged was 155whp and stock was 145. so just like i was stating, based off my experience running against 944's for the last 3 years, there is no way in hell i have a 25% power to weight advantage. i am not saying i don't have an advantage in the power department its just not as drastic as your are stating. i like racing all the guys with more power its just more motivation to show you can run mistake free and be right in the fun....mike, denis, henry, and julius. these guys all have faster cars on paper, but all have strengths and weaknesses. how come you guys don't just stay spec racing? So your new adjusted power numbers, reduce your advantage in power to weight over a stock 944 (Eon's car has stock DME chip, stock exhaust manifolds - will pass PCA scrutiny for stock SPEC class) to a lowly 21% advantage. So the previous analogy awards us the strap on kind of flip flops in a foot sprint over your Nike running shoes.... We are dead even or make up ground over the 14 consecutive hurdles only to have absolutely -0- chance at the last straight heat to the finish line. We race bracket (other than just SPEC) to support the local track, and honestly, we like all of the people that race locally, but much like Lane's point of view, it's becoming more of a costly detriment due to the level that a 944 has to be pushed (suspension wear - tires) to equal cars that are potentially way faster. That's not to even mention repair costs in the rare occasion that one of our cars gets close enough to take a shot at the lead. T
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Post by melan45 on Nov 10, 2011 10:04:43 GMT -6
why aren't these car breaking out when a 944, being pushed hard is a 1.24..?"
if you going with just a power-to-weight as being the common denominator we would need to verify the nissan\honda numbers.
start by getting a legit dyno\weight from each car, rate the tire(gary and i run nitto), rate chassis (not sure how to rate), areo maybe, and then maybe driver = more clarity for you
4master = driving a 944, against a similar field of cars, and found a way to win. Skill?
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nine44s
I just want to go fast!
I <3 Porsches
Posts: 204
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Post by nine44s on Nov 10, 2011 10:22:31 GMT -6
why aren't these car breaking out when a 944, being pushed hard is a 1.24..?" if you going with just a power-to-weight as being the common denominator we would need to verify the nissan\honda numbers. start by getting a legit dyno\weight from each car, rate the tire(gary and i run nitto), rate chassis (not sure how to rate), areo maybe, and then maybe driver = more clarity for you 4master = driving a 944, against a similar field of cars, and found a way to win. Skill? Dude what's with the for 4master obsession?! I won the championship too in a 944! All you really have to do is show up for the races! As far as skill I'm never telling anyone that I'm great or faster than anyone else but ummm Lane, Scott, Gary, Chris, and myself have all won races in 944s and have all all tuned laps within probably .2 or better of each other. There comes a point where the car will be the limit. ( yes I am fully aware that the car could be faster, and yes I choose to run the car as is to compete in PCA) As for tires, well that's a hard thing to compare at this track. My fastest time of 1:24.0xx on brand new BFG-R1s was only like half a tenth faster than my fastest time on RA1s that had at least 4-5 race weekends on them.
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lane
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 164
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Post by lane on Nov 10, 2011 10:24:57 GMT -6
Clint, The reason they're not breaking out other than Henry is that they are not driving the car to its full potential! Plane and simple! I think they are complacent to just use the hp to make up time on the straights. In regards to Scott yes he is a good driver. Like I said before when Scott was running there was a somewhat even field car and driver wise which rewarded someone for driving smart and well. Since then a lot of those folks who ran then got a little better and their cars got a lot better not to mention the new drivers and cars that have shown up since then. I believe if you ask Scott he will admit that with the current field of cars in Red Bracket a NA 944 will have a really tough time.
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Post by turbot on Nov 10, 2011 10:48:20 GMT -6
Hey, I'll give credit to Clint for sticking it out and standing up for the other point of view...! There are probably 50-100 members and guests who have read through this thread and obviously no opinion in the whole lot...? I put forth a spec tire rule change proposal for bracket to at least negate tire advantage and it was mis-worded in it's presentation and dead on arrival with one vote.....me. I brought up tire contingency here on the forum. Toyo and other manufacturers will by happy to pay out free tire contingency for as little as five participants in a race program. Crickets. I brought up the possibility of even having a Spec 944 championship within and concurrent with the bracket races, nada. Not going to go look, but just a guess, 944s in differing varieties probably make up 80% of the bracket field....maybe more. The bracket system has survived up to the 10nth year anniversary of the track, it's a good system, it works, and it's probably the reason for the longevity of the series but even successful things can be tweaked to be better. T
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Post by melan45 on Nov 10, 2011 11:08:45 GMT -6
until i breakout over and over again i am in the right class...if you want to win first it's real simple find a way and there are plenty of ways. its so obvious i am not sure why we even have to bring it up. my same car three years ago with all that 25% power advantage was running 1:26-27 and finishing mid pack. i was getting beat by whoever. i put things in perspective and sleep really sound at night. sounds like you guys need to step up to different competition...you know the kind where you are out to prove something. you will get the same car from me race after race and there is not going to be a single change...same tire, setup, same drive to stay safe characteristics etc. block me, cut me off, drive wreck-less and i will just follow you and watch you make a mistake and if you don't make a mistake congratulate your efforts. wait i am forgetting something....i will just blow by you in 1, suck-a$$ in all the other 14 corners, and still not breakout.
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