ccarver
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 155
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Post by ccarver on Apr 29, 2010 10:35:01 GMT -6
Lane you are probably right with the lack of travel. But we have to keep in mind that some other racers may want to come race with us, and they will not be allowed in our catch all groups if they want to run the tires, or trim levels for another group. What we have lets everyone have a place to race, Sometimes in two different groups.
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lane
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 164
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Post by lane on Apr 29, 2010 12:14:34 GMT -6
Hmmm... How many racers show up to run just out of a whim at CGB from far away? Not many. When we run PCA or you run SCCA we still have to follow the rules of the sanctioning body. So I would imagine that if someone were to come here from out of town to race at CGB it would be under some sort of sanctioning event holder like PCA, SCCA or NASA.
I'm talking about series point chase for bracket. If someone does show up then hell let'em run they just won't get the points. If they want points then they have to meet the requirments. If of course we could get a contigency from a tire manufactor that would pay in tire points that would be great. Then the tire thing would take care of it self.
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Post by turbot on Apr 29, 2010 12:57:29 GMT -6
Carver, you're already running what you think is the best tire for your car so you have no way to go except down.... ;D T That is where you are wrong T, Like the PCA guys, Troy and I have been running SCCA legal cars. Weight, tires, trim levels and all. But now that we have to make some changes to our current setups for different rules that only apply to our series? I think that opens the door for us to do a lot more mods. I have run a SCCA classed car because we also raced SCCA. Our series allows us to do that competitively with out any mods. With the new rules that are proposed, I think I will have to make changes to how we race locally. Carver Yeah Carver, just because the cars find a niche in some class in SCCA or NASA isn't very telling. So there's an official SCCA class for a CRX at 2000#s.....!?!?!?! There are class spots in NASA for super light weight 944s too in the P/W formula but the cars we have out at CGB are #2750 with 125bhp. T
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Post by turbot on Apr 29, 2010 13:24:27 GMT -6
If of course we could get a contigency from a tire manufactor that would pay in tire points that would be great. Then the tire thing would take care of it self. Absolutely....., watch all the opponents line up for the spec tire formula when the words "free tires" make it around the paddock... T
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Post by harrisracing on Apr 29, 2010 14:10:20 GMT -6
Not really sure how many people in the bracket classes (I'm talking blue, yellow, red) travel and race at other events but you could set your car up for what ever series and have the spec tire as the great equalizer at CGB. As it is now I'm starting to see an ass of money being spent to win "the plaque" and the holy grail the "series end trophy". In my opinion we are killing the affordable racing of the bracket series. Hell I remember when we first started this it looked like a lemons race out there ;D But that's racing I guess. I proved this theory wrong this year...4 out of 6 races were on Hankooks that are total crap IMO! My car is the cheapest there is investment-wise in the GT class. There are things you can do to your car to get a trophy but you guys just don't want to do it. WITHOUT SPENDING CONSIDERABLE MONEY you can add weight, install throttle stop, install intake restrictor, or go smaller on tires and still run 100% every weekend and still be competitive for a trophy. It might not be the RED trophy, but it will be a chance at a trophy. And if you didn't notice. ALL of the trophies were the same this year. Again, your solution 1) Defeats the Main Objective of our race series by adding rules and restricting freedoms of modification. 2) Increases complexity of rules, which will result in more of this argument and policing of such. 3) Helps few, but Hinders many. But, to be the devil's advocate, say we do adopt a "spec tire" for this class. Why wouldn't the fast guys just mod their cars, or dump weight to still go faster for the trophy then? It still doesn't help the 1:26 guys if the 1:23 guys still go faster than they are now. Patrick
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Post by turbot on Apr 29, 2010 14:42:44 GMT -6
Not really sure how many people in the bracket classes (I'm talking blue, yellow, red) travel and race at other events but you could set your car up for what ever series and have the spec tire as the great equalizer at CGB. As it is now I'm starting to see an ass of money being spent to win "the plaque" and the holy grail the "series end trophy". In my opinion we are killing the affordable racing of the bracket series. Hell I remember when we first started this it looked like a lemons race out there ;D But that's racing I guess. I proved this theory wrong this year...4 out of 6 races were on Hankooks that are total crap IMO! My car is the cheapest there is investment-wise in the GT class. There are things you can do to your car to get a trophy but you guys just don't want to do it. WITHOUT SPENDING CONSIDERABLE MONEY you can add weight, install throttle stop, install intake restrictor, or go smaller on tires and still run 100% every weekend and still be competitive for a trophy. It might not be the RED trophy, but it will be a chance at a trophy. And if you didn't notice. ALL of the trophies were the same this year. Again, your solution 1) Defeats the Main Objective of our race series by adding rules and restricting freedoms of modification. 2) Increases complexity of rules, which will result in more of this argument and policing of such. 3) Helps few, but Hinders many. But, to be the devil's advocate, say we do adopt a "spec tire" for this class. Why wouldn't the fast guys just mod their cars, or dump weight to still go faster for the trophy then? It still doesn't help the 1:26 guys if the 1:23 guys still go faster than they are now. Patrick Patrick, if I ran a word/phrase search, I swear, I think the word "trophy" would come up[ with more hits than 'Ross Bentley'.....!!!!! Maybe this is where the communication problem is.....we aint talkin' about no stinkin' trophies. We just want closer racing, bumper to bumper where you're close enough (limited by tire grip) where pressure on an opponent can award you with a pass attempt. I know you guys in the other group get strung out a lot of times and yes, there's the rare occasion of a close battle like the one between Paul D. and the Panoz at the Charity race....but what's wrong with wanting the competition just like that one off race that you talk about at the end of the year, to be the same each and every outing, between each and every car. The top cars in bracket already have a massive power advantage.....and on top of that, they're the ones running the 10+" wide Hoosiers. They can show up late without even qualifying, start last and be battling for the lead on lap 2....such is the difference in power AND grip. So not only do you get wasted on the straight from 4-5 car lengths back, you can have a 3-4 car length lead on them going into T14 and they make up 1/2 of that distance due to grip drive onto the straight. It's pretty disheartening when you work your tail off to hold someone back from T8-14 to what you think should be enough margin so they don't nab you before T1 and even THAT isn't enough. Remember.....we aren't gonna change our cars because they have to be PCA legal too. Personally, I live for the starts.....because that's the place where I'm able to take more risks than the front runners are willing to take and I usually grab a few spots. I like the close proximity stuff so it's not about just showing up and doing the laps at speed with 100 feet between competitors.....I can get that at a DE. Surely you can't argue that the most memorable points of the season for you are when cars are within inches of each other...? When I started out on my mythical, non-existent turbo car, I used to work night and day on it with a point to prove....even during my normal open shop hours in the tranny biz, I'd work on the car instead of customer stuff but along the way, i came to a realization. It's the close competition of keeping momentum, making more than one lunge attempt during the course of a single lap, driving with one eye on my rear view mirror that I like most. Eventually, I'm going to enjoy my other car but it'll probably be in the PCA venue against like GT3 944 turbo cars that will be close too. I have absolutely nothing to prove by blowing away local normally aspirated BMWs on a straightaway with a horsepower crutch. To each his own. Without the spec tire control, I'm just going to partially follow your advice and do whatever I can to pressure the cars in front of me to break out, a tall order with the equipment but if it has to be more expensive tires, that's the route i guess I'll go. T
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ccarver
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 155
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Post by ccarver on Apr 29, 2010 14:44:19 GMT -6
I just want to go fast. Tires are just extra.
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jlee
I want to race
Posts: 22
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Post by jlee on Apr 29, 2010 15:08:43 GMT -6
I see patricks point, if he thinks he will lose time in the turns do to tire grip. He could just turn the boost up. He would just drag race from corner to corner therefor making up for his lost second with the spec tire. I think a spec tire would limit the people who could race because now they have to find a specific tire that may not be in their size or just not available at the used price. I know plenty of guys run grand am take offs or other series take offs because that is what they can find in there budget.
When you start mandating racing rules you turn into SCCA which can make the budget much higher for some drivers, making them unable to participate.
This is why NASA has grown so much in popularity compared to SCCA with the run whatcha brung mentality.
If you want to run faster with the big boys either buy new faster tires or make your car faster. Ultimately it comes down to how do YOU want to race not how do you want everyone else to race.
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Post by Fast Guys on Apr 29, 2010 16:15:18 GMT -6
T- Tires aren't the problem keeping the racing from being tight every time. The difference in driver's skill level is something that can't be mitigated through rules or tires with our series. We have one spec class and even it varies by five seconds a lap. This isn't a snub on anyone's driving; it's just the real situation. We aren't pros. We aren't that consistent. Some people are fast in slow cars, some slow in fast cars. The bracket system lets everyone race, no matter their skill or car prep level.
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troym
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 145
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Post by troym on Apr 29, 2010 19:14:13 GMT -6
Yeah Carver, just because the cars find a niche in some class in SCCA or NASA isn't very telling. So there's an official SCCA class for a CRX at 2000#s.....!?!?!?!
There are class spots in NASA for super light weight 944s too in the P/W formula but the cars we have out at CGB are #2750 with 125bhp. T SCCA classes for 89-91 CRX: (min weight includes driver) Improved Touring A - 2250# F Production - 1948# My car needs about 50# of lead to make weight in IT. Rebstock's car is about 200# lighter than mine, but he had no plans to run SCCA when he built it.
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troym
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 145
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Post by troym on Apr 29, 2010 19:24:39 GMT -6
We just want closer racing, bumper to bumper where you're close enough (limited by tire grip) where pressure on an opponent can award you with a pass attempt. I know you guys in the other group get strung out a lot of times and yes, there's the rare occasion of a close battle like the one between Paul D. and the Panoz at the Charity race....but what's wrong with wanting the competition just like that one off race that you talk about at the end of the year, to be the same each and every outing, between each and every car. The top cars in bracket already have a massive power advantage.....and on top of that, they're the ones running the 10+" wide Hoosiers. They can show up late without even qualifying, start last and be battling for the lead on lap 2....such is the difference in power AND grip. So not only do you get wasted on the straight from 4-5 car lengths back, you can have a 3-4 car length lead on them going into T14 and they make up 1/2 of that distance due to grip drive onto the straight. It's pretty disheartening when you work your tail off to hold someone back from T8-14 to what you think should be enough margin so they don't nab you before T1 and even THAT isn't enough. Remember.....we aren't gonna change our cars because they have to be PCA legal too. Personally, I live for the starts.....because that's the place where I'm able to take more risks than the front runners are willing to take and I usually grab a few spots. I like the close proximity stuff so it's not about just showing up and doing the laps at speed with 100 feet between competitors.....I can get that at a DE. Surely you can't argue that the most memorable points of the season for you are when cars are within inches of each other...? When I started out on my mythical, non-existent turbo car, I used to work night and day on it with a point to prove....even during my normal open shop hours in the tranny biz, I'd work on the car instead of customer stuff but along the way, i came to a realization. It's the close competition of keeping momentum, making more than one lunge attempt during the course of a single lap, driving with one eye on my rear view mirror that I like most. Eventually, I'm going to enjoy my other car but it'll probably be in the PCA venue against like GT3 944 turbo cars that will be close too. I have absolutely nothing to prove by blowing away local normally aspirated BMWs on a straightaway with a horsepower crutch. To each his own. Without the spec tire control, I'm just going to partially follow your advice and do whatever I can to pressure the cars in front of me to break out, a tall order with the equipment but if it has to be more expensive tires, that's the route i guess I'll go. T T, I agree with you about the fun factor of close competition, but I don't see how a spec tire will stop the hp cars from staying up front. CGB is a hp track and you can ride around in somebody's trunk from 2 to 14 and maybe even get around them, but you're still gonna be dead meat on the straight if they're a decent driver.
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Post by turbot on Apr 30, 2010 6:09:31 GMT -6
I see patricks point, if he thinks he will lose time in the turns do to tire grip. He could just turn the boost up. He would just drag race from corner to corner therefor making up for his lost second with the spec tire. I think a spec tire would limit the people who could race because now they have to find a specific tire that may not be in their size or just not available at the used price. I know plenty of guys run grand am take offs or other series take offs because that is what they can find in there budget. When you start mandating racing rules you turn into SCCA which can make the budget much higher for some drivers, making them unable to participate. This is why NASA has grown so much in popularity compared to SCCA with the run whatcha brung mentality. If you want to run faster with the big boys either buy new faster tires or make your car faster. Ultimately it comes down to how do YOU want to race not how do you want everyone else to race. Jeremy, you must have missed the point.....made 16 and 7/8ths times already. Bracket is made up of mostly 944s THAT CAN'T CHANGE THEIR CAR JUST TO SUIT CGB........! T
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Post by turbot on Apr 30, 2010 6:12:51 GMT -6
T- Tires aren't the problem keeping the racing from being tight every time. The difference in driver's skill level is something that can't be mitigated through rules or tires with our series. We have one spec class and even it varies by five seconds a lap. This isn't a snub on anyone's driving; it's just the real situation. We aren't pros. We aren't that consistent. Some people are fast in slow cars, some slow in fast cars. The bracket system lets everyone race, no matter their skill or car prep level. Right Andy, but a control tire can keep the disparity of potential speed variable closer by comparison of IRL to F1 cars instead of Indy Lights to F1 cars. T
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Post by turbot on Apr 30, 2010 6:16:57 GMT -6
Yeah Carver, just because the cars find a niche in some class in SCCA or NASA isn't very telling. So there's an official SCCA class for a CRX at 2000#s.....!?!?!?!
There are class spots in NASA for super light weight 944s too in the P/W formula but the cars we have out at CGB are #2750 with 125bhp. T SCCA classes for 89-91 CRX: (min weight includes driver) Improved Touring A - 2250# F Production - 1948# My car needs about 50# of lead to make weight in IT. Rebstock's car is about 200# lighter than mine, but he had no plans to run SCCA when he built it. Exactly......, just because a car has a sanctioning body class niche for a car to label it by (what Carver used to make his argument) doesn't wash as a comparison of "class car" to class car. T
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Post by turbot on Apr 30, 2010 6:23:11 GMT -6
T, I agree with you about the fun factor of close competition, but I don't see how a spec tire will stop the hp cars from staying up front. CGB is a hp track and you can ride around in somebody's trunk from 2 to 14 and maybe even get around them, but you're still gonna be dead meat on the straight if they're a decent driver. LOL, as you should know as well as anybody. Just as an example Troy.....you, me and Clint are already running a spec tire. The HP cars currently have TWO advantages. Imagine taking one of the two away. By logic, the racing would be closer and I'll tell you what I have observed. There are car/driver combos out there that get very harried when you are "in their trunk"..... ;D T
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