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Post by turbot on Apr 28, 2010 7:54:18 GMT -6
We need to have a separate thread running on this because I'm definitely going to bring it for consideration whenever there's a meeting and we could air out the pros and cons now, but .....directly back at your reply Clint, if all of bracket was on one agreed tire, there'd be no reason to switch to anything else because the car next to you did. There had been talk of cars being bumped out if they hit the breakout wall twice....., the spec tire would solve this problem too, allowing faster cars to stay in bracket because they'd be slowed from the Hoosier, etc. There was also talk (and interest) in the track selling tires on site. This could benefit the organizers AND the racers. Tire sale profit for the track, discount pricing for competitors. Plus, more competitive racing based on driver skill as the series intent. I think ALL of the blue and yellow bracket guys are already on a treaded tire so they'd move closer to the action. It's a win win win win situation..... ;D T so i should be holding off until further notice? i am not buying tires or swapping b/c the next guy is I can't say that, it's not up to me. I'm going to bring it up at a series' meeting though like ChrisW suggested. There's no historical precedent to believe that the organizers wouldn't seriously consider driver input if there's a consensus for a spec tire. We just need to air out all the concerns and get a head count of driver's standpoints so we know where we stand. I'm in the same corner with you though Clint......., the chance of me showing up with brand new Hoosiers for each event is somewhere between -1 and -0-.... ;D T
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Post by harrisracing on Apr 28, 2010 9:10:45 GMT -6
Con 1: This eliminates the option of buying closeout tires (like my hankooks) and coming out and compete for cheap. Spec tire means "spec tire". I got the Hankooks for $80 a tire...I bought 10 of them when they were on sale. They went as fast as 1:20.5 around NPR. My take-off Hoosiers (100 per tire shipped) have only gone as fast as 1:19.001 and they are MUCH wider tires. Con 2: He with freshest "spec" tire will still have an advantage...if they can afford fresh Hoosiers now, they will still be able to afford fresh "spec" tires and therefore STILL be the guys on the podium Con 3: Eliminates ANY OTHER car to come compete per our current rules in red bracket. If I want to put street tires on the MR2 and come play in Red, I should be allowed to. Or if I want to build the 914 and run full race slick take-offs in 15" size for cheap then I should be allowed to. Doesn't make sense to punish everyone else that would like to run red to help 3 guys in the back of the pack in a PCA class 944. I looked at the data from the last 3 races and there is a 3 sec best lap time split between the front pack and the rear pack. Take a look for yourself and see where you think the time difference is made. Looks like there were plenty of good races going on. Con 4 (similar to 3): Will it then be legal for me to come run the spec red class car and run 20's and get the trophy? Performance Option: You CAN install a throttle stop or restrictor plate on the car to adjust the power. Quite possibly the quickest easiest way to adjust lap times. The more I read your responses the more it looks like you are trying to slow down the 1:24 cars so that you will have a chance to compete with them for the trophy because you don't want to change your car or spend money on new Hoosiers to go faster. My response is that it is up to each driver to determine what they want to spend in order to get a trophy. And I add also that YOU can still get a chance at a trophy by slowing your car down, running the cheap tires and dropping class. All my take on things...but those are clearly CONS. Patrick Or is it? You guys should be targeting a time to run for the class. If you can't hit that time, then adjust the car accordingly by tires, power, suspension etc. If you CAN hit that target time, then you are in a good position to slow the car, install throttle stop, etc. It would be wise to be able to hit 1:23.8 on your fastest day and just tune the car to be slower after that. Don't know why you guys think running the same tire is going to fix the brackets. It ain't broke...if you are racing against 1:24 cars in a 1:26 car...drop to the 1:27 bracket...it's simple. Patrick LOL, this from the guy that bought two dozen Hankooks on close out sale and is always harping about how cheap the tires you ran where..... Patrick, I stated this at least 20 times already - Every 944 that circulates CGB is currently on race weekends is built to legal PCA spec. Only two that I know of don't compete in PCA race events, Walt and Fred McMullan and both of those were built to PCA race spec by their previous owners and remain in that format. We can't "adjust" power. We can't "adjust" weight. Heck, you can't even touch the brakes, body panels, transmission ratios, etc., etc., etc. Last time I looked, bracket, blue-red, consists probably of 80% Porsches, 70% 944 PCA class or Spec cars. The SP2 cars are already down 60-70 bhp to the 3.0 liter S2 cars that run in bracket and the S2 with the power advantage already run Hoosiers which makes the disparity even greater. I'm only bringing this up to put the competition more in the hands of the drivers. It's only a suggestion for discussion but I'm kinda perplexed as to why everyone in bracket wouldn't be for it. Like I said, it'd bring costs down, allow some cars that should be bumped to stay in bracket where they are competitive and possibly serve as a source of income for the track. There's even the possibility that we could get a tire contingency program going that would award class winners to get free tires if the track could move enough of one particular tire. I see a couple of suggestions that you made (all out of the realm of possibility for the reasons I stated) but can you offer up a valid reason why a spec tire would be detrimental....? I'm giving y'all the "pros". I haven't seen any "cons". T
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Post by turbot on Apr 28, 2010 9:48:37 GMT -6
Con 1: This eliminates the option of buying closeout tires (like my hankooks) and coming out and compete for cheap. Spec tire means "spec tire". I got the Hankooks for $80 a tire...I bought 10 of them when they were on sale. They went as fast as 1:20.5 around NPR. My take-off Hoosiers (100 per tire shipped) have only gone as fast as 1:19.001 and they are MUCH wider tires. There'd be way less disparity between off the shelf brand new stickers and any deal you could find on close-outs. EX- New Hoosier = $225, close-out = $150 Spec tire $175, close-out = $150 Con 2: He with freshest "spec" tire will still have an advantage...if they can afford fresh Hoosiers now, they will still be able to afford fresh "spec" tires and therefore STILL be the guys on the podium Not necessarily true, spec/treaded tires generally get quicker as the rubber wears and hold nearly constant until they cord. Con 3: Eliminates ANY OTHER car to come compete per our current rules in red bracket. If I want to put street tires on the MR2 and come play in Red, I should be allowed to. Or if I want to build the 914 and run full race slick take-offs in 15" size for cheap then I should be allowed to. Doesn't make sense to punish everyone else that would like to run red to help 3 guys in the back of the pack in a PCA class 944. I looked at the data from the last 3 races and there is a 3 sec best lap time split between the front pack and the rear pack. Take a look for yourself and see where you think the time difference is made. Looks like there were plenty of good races going on. Total nonsense, watch the race vids, you'd see that a lot of times, cars end up freight training behind a leader who is slower over all and has a pretty massive advantage on the straight bits.....some of these cars are holding up lesser powered cars even WITH the advantage of 10' wide Hoosiers. And yes, even so, there are good races going on, that could be made better/closer by adjusting the only variable that's changeable easily due to the criteria of PCA class rules. Con 4 (similar to 3): Will it then be legal for me to come run the spec red class car and run 20's and get the trophy? No, break-out would still apply....why wouldn't it....? I'm sure a provision could be made to back spec tires to a lesser quality such as the street tires you mentioned though if you find it absolutely necessary to prove something on the straights with your turbo MR2 against cars making 125 bhp at the rear wheel.... Performance Option: You CAN install a throttle stop or restrictor plate on the car to adjust the power. Quite possibly the quickest easiest way to adjust lap times. Or we could use a cheaper spec tire that has multiple benefits and just leave the cars alone... The more I read your responses the more it looks like you are trying to slow down the 1:24 cars so that you will have a chance to compete with them for the trophy because you don't want to change your car or spend money on new Hoosiers to go faster. My response is that it is up to each driver to determine what they want to spend in order to get a trophy. And I add also that YOU can still get a chance at a trophy by slowing your car down, running the cheap tires and dropping class. All my take on things...but those are clearly CONS. Patrick Ha ha, dude, dropping a class in a car capable of running within a tenth of breakout with a limiter isn't fair to the people who are going balls out in yellow or blue just the same as it's bogus to run a 1.23.00 car de-tuned in bracket. let me help you out with something at least a little legitimate, You could fairly say that maybe the SPEC Miata group is the place for me, but part of the point here is, we have nearly as many 944s as SMs and in other venues in the States, SPEC 944 and 944 CUP, the tires are already controlled. It aint really that big a deal, I could always just borrow money from Carver and buy myself a nice set of real race tires..... ;D I just brought it up because we talked about it last year and never went any further. Do I need to cover the pros again for you....? ;D T
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Post by harrisracing on Apr 28, 2010 12:32:37 GMT -6
SO, set of Hoosiers = 900 set of Spec tires = 700 set of hankooks on closeout = 320 set of take off slicks = 420
Please again tell me how you are saving money over what I spent last year? Was I not competitive in my class?
Sorry this is flat wrong - check with the spec miata guys to see what even 2 cycles of an RA 1 does to your lap times.
Again, the Mylaps data is pretty clear that the trend for finishing order is pretty well related to lap times...give or take a few tenths here or there. Think about this: How could qualifying have made things different?
So, again, you wish to slow down the 1:24 cars to a 1:26 level while keeping the 1:26 cars there? Again, why?
I thought one of your major points here was to keep those 1:23.xx times allowable if they were using spec tire? Or are the intentions per the aforementioned "slowing" of the fast guys?
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ccarver
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 155
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Post by ccarver on Apr 28, 2010 13:02:54 GMT -6
If we go spec, i will just buy wheels and run a much bigger tire.
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Post by Fast Guys on Apr 28, 2010 13:40:52 GMT -6
You shouldn't have given up the game so early.
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Post by turbot on Apr 28, 2010 14:35:22 GMT -6
It's about time a thread takes off around here.... ;D SO, set of Hoosiers = 900 set of Spec tires = 700 set of hankooks on closeout = 320 set of take off slicks = 420 Please again tell me how you are saving money over what I spent last year? Was I not competitive in my class? Who's talking about you except you....? My point stands, $700 is cheaper than $900 and that is a savings where I'm from. Also, finding tires on a close-out is not dependable enough of a source to supply a field of cars on demand and takes the small profit angle for the track out of the equation. Sorry this is flat wrong - check with the spec miata guys to see what even 2 cycles of an RA 1 does to your lap times. Our weather conditions this year wouldn't necessarily provide valid data for me to look at and SMs are way lighter than 2750-3000lb cars. It's commonly understood in any 944 circle that I have been in discussion with that RA1s are good right up to the point where they cord. This has been my own experience as well. Again, the Mylaps data is pretty clear that the trend for finishing order is pretty well related to lap times...give or take a few tenths here or there. Think about this: How could qualifying have made things different? My laps shows lap times of cars following another car too, many times having a faster lap time compromised by cars that blast 2 seconds away down the straight and then are slower through the turns. So, again, you wish to slow down the 1:24 cars to a 1:26 level while keeping the 1:26 cars there? Again, why? Closer racing. During the season, I was able on some weekends of running in close proximity of cars with 1-2 seconds worth of tire benefit in hand and some of those races and the PCA race proved again to me that the disparity between the cars has more to do with quality of tires than anything. I'd rather the competition be based on driving. The people who want to cling to a 2.0 second tire advantage don't seem to want that. I thought one of your major points here was to keep those 1:23.xx times allowable if they were using spec tire? Or are the intentions per the aforementioned "slowing" of the fast guys? No.....the 1.23.xx per lap cars would be able to stay in bracket instead of being bumped out because they'd be slowed by the spec tire to at least a 1.24.xx. T
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Post by turbot on Apr 28, 2010 14:36:32 GMT -6
If we go spec, i will just buy wheels and run a much bigger tire. Carver, you're already running what you think is the best tire for your car so you have no way to go except down.... ;D T
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troym
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 145
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Post by troym on Apr 28, 2010 15:22:57 GMT -6
Performance Option: You CAN install a throttle stop or restrictor plate on the car to adjust the power. Quite possibly the quickest easiest way to adjust lap times. Patrick, I need a throttle extender and an unrestrictor plate. Can you help me? ;D For the record I am against a spec tire rule. Like all things spec, there will always be someone with deep pockets who will show up with new shaved spec tires for every race so he can have the maximum performance advantage.
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Post by harrisracing on Apr 28, 2010 16:49:02 GMT -6
Troy. You know I can make power one way or another! Motor swap, turbo, (buy my mr2) etc.
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Post by turbot on Apr 29, 2010 6:20:02 GMT -6
For the record I am against a spec tire rule. Like all things spec, there will always be someone with deep pockets who will show up with new shaved spec tires for every race so he can have the maximum performance advantage. Hey Troy....been waiting for you to join in because I had no idea where you'd be on this. There are only maybe 4 cars or so that didn't run treaded tires in the heats last season so I figured it'd be to your advantage if everyone was on the same tire. I don't disagree that there would be nothing to stop people from showing up with brand new shaved spec tires for every race but it'd sure beat them showing up with new Hoosiers each time out. Anyways, point taken and respect for your position.....like I said, just throwing it out there again this year before the season starts for consideration. It's not a crusade for me. T
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lane
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 164
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Post by lane on Apr 29, 2010 8:25:44 GMT -6
I have been trying to find good deals on tires like what Patrick is talking about but I can't find the good deals in my tire size. At least the ones that stick. Now that the track is selling the Khumos this will be an alternative and one that seems to work. I can go the spec tire thing especially to help with the cost of racing in our bracket classes but thats just me.
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Post by turbot on Apr 29, 2010 9:06:37 GMT -6
I have been trying to find good deals on tires like what Patrick is talking about but I can't find the good deals in my tire size. At least the ones that stick. Now that the track is selling the Khumos this will be an alternative and one that seems to work. I can go the spec tire thing especially to help with the cost of racing in our bracket classes but thats just me. Heh heh, looks like we'd never have the votes Lane...., my own son would probably be against the spec tire thing... ;D What we regularly use up are 225/50/16 and 245/45/16 and the only tires that make economical sense are, Toyo RA1 and 888 and the BFG G-ForceR1. The 888 is out for me.....been there done that. That leaves the RA1 and the G-Force R1, one treaded, one not. They don't make the V710 in round shoulder for one of the fitments for us and they are more expensive (+$20-30 per tire) than the BFG anyway. If the track were selling Toyo, I'd stay that course even though they're a second slower (at least) than a Hoosier or comparable tire. I have never had a "race tire" mounted in any session ever. My best lap on the treaded tires that I have run in all of last season was a 1.25.3 and if there's a second to gain by mounting a race tire, all other things being equal, on a good day, I'd be flirting around the breakout even in old Frankie.... ;D T
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ccarver
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 155
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Post by ccarver on Apr 29, 2010 9:14:17 GMT -6
If we go spec, i will just buy wheels and run a much bigger tire. Carver, you're already running what you think is the best tire for your car so you have no way to go except down.... ;D T That is where you are wrong T, Like the PCA guys, Troy and I have been running SCCA legal cars. Weight, tires, trim levels and all. But now that we have to make some changes to our current setups for different rules that only apply to our series? I think that opens the door for us to do a lot more mods. I have run a SCCA classed car because we also raced SCCA. Our series allows us to do that competitively with out any mods. With the new rules that are proposed, I think I will have to make changes to how we race locally. Carver
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lane
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 164
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Post by lane on Apr 29, 2010 9:35:13 GMT -6
Not really sure how many people in the bracket classes (I'm talking blue, yellow, red) travel and race at other events but you could set your car up for what ever series and have the spec tire as the great equalizer at CGB. As it is now I'm starting to see an ass of money being spent to win "the plaque" and the holy grail the "series end trophy". In my opinion we are killing the affordable racing of the bracket series. Hell I remember when we first started this it looked like a lemons race out there ;D But that's racing I guess.
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