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Post by turbot on Jan 22, 2010 12:20:21 GMT -6
Oh...., and erm, maybe you should read more.....!?!?!?!
"common sense" is two words.....!!!!!!! ;D
T
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nine44s
I just want to go fast!
I <3 Porsches
Posts: 204
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Post by nine44s on Jan 22, 2010 13:08:39 GMT -6
Oh...., and erm, maybe you should read more.....!?!?!?! "common sense" is two words.....!!!!!!! ;D T yeah I read it, iPhone dictionary says: common sense (noun) —sound practical judgment commonsense (adj) —exhibiting native good judgment ok so I used the wrong meaning, but give me a break I'm typing on a phone
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ccarver
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 155
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Post by ccarver on Jan 22, 2010 14:27:45 GMT -6
Eon, do you know the hand signals? I will be in Red next race. Just saying
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Post by harrisracing on Jan 22, 2010 15:04:21 GMT -6
I couldn't really get on the power any sooner in 14 that particular day with the understeer but in general I know I am losing time there. I think my strong point is actually from T1-T3, everywhere else I'm losing some time, mostly 4-5. As for the book... I'm pretty sure I'll be better of with track time. Afterall I already knew that the race isn't won in the first turn... I thought that was just commonsense More advice: About the book: I just read it again on the flight to Isla Mujeres Mexico last week. It is an incredible book. I ended up giving my copy to the captain of the ship since he races Go-Karts. Everyone who races should read that book. Ross Bentley talks about MANY aspects of racing - yes even the pedals and how to work them and the shifter as stupid as you might think that is (I bet you would still learn from it). As Reading Railroad said, "Don't take my word for it!" About the video: data acquisition and video are invaluable. I don't have to ride in the car to know what it's doing in turn one - I CAN TELL FROM THE VIDEO! This is ALSO in the book - you can practice WITHOUT BEING ON TRACK - there's a chapter on "Visualization Practice". I gave Eon big props on his driving - his biggest benefit is that he is fast THROUGH the turns which is a VERY hard thing to teach (that's the last part of the turn he should be working on btw), now he needs learn how fast he can go before turn-in, THEN DRIVE THROUGH, then EXIT the turn. ALL OF THIS IS IN THE BOOK! You guys don't know everything and neither do I so please take these criticisms as things that I have been learning and have been having epiphanies about lately as well. You CAN NOT just learn everything on your own by going out there and getting seat time. I would venture to say that you wouldn't learn even 75% of real tricks to competitive racing just by entering lapping days and racing without gaining knowledge from different sources. Ross Bentley even covers it in the book where he talks about practice. You know the old "Practice makes perfect"...well he negates that and tells that "Perfect practice makes perfect". Seat time is expensive and You can be counter-productive in your practice by doing it wrong over and over...think about that for a second. If muscles and hand-eye coordination are trained things, then you CAN be training them wrong by practicing wrong. The book is FULL of things THAT WILL MAKE YOU A FASTER DRIVER...PERIOD. You are both showing your ignorance by downplaying something that you have not even researched to know anything about. If you don't want to read it, FINE, if you don't want advice, FINE I will stop helping and stop offering advice - but good luck beating CARVER in the flooded Pizza Delivery Car! Patrick
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Post by harrisracing on Jan 22, 2010 15:13:36 GMT -6
Afterall I already knew that the race isn't won in the first turn... I thought that was just commonsense Don't be so hasty.....I think there's a chapter identifying which pedal is which too...., that kind of info is hard to beat right there.... Let's see....., read or drive, read or drive, read or drive...... Uh....drive... ;D "Dif'rent strokes" as they say......wait, where'd I read that....? And uhm...."there's more than one way to skin a cat....." T You are typing and reading right now...actually just wasting our time talking smack which is just making you sound silly. Unless you CAN be driving right now I would suggest the following: quit typing, drive to Barnes and Noble and spend $15 on Ross Bentley's "Speed Secrets" and read at home. THEN watch the videos again and see how many things you are doing wrong and VISUALIZE them done better. I think it's funny that you think you can't learn by reading books... Patrick
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ccarver
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 155
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Post by ccarver on Jan 22, 2010 15:22:21 GMT -6
GROUP HUG?
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nine44s
I just want to go fast!
I <3 Porsches
Posts: 204
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Post by nine44s on Jan 22, 2010 16:04:02 GMT -6
I couldn't really get on the power any sooner in 14 that particular day with the understeer but in general I know I am losing time there. I think my strong point is actually from T1-T3, everywhere else I'm losing some time, mostly 4-5. As for the book... I'm pretty sure I'll be better of with track time. Afterall I already knew that the race isn't won in the first turn... I thought that was just commonsense More advice: About the book: I just read it again on the flight to Isla Mujeres Mexico last week. It is an incredible book. I ended up giving my copy to the captain of the ship since he races Go-Karts. Everyone who races should read that book. Ross Bentley talks about MANY aspects of racing - yes even the pedals and how to work them and the shifter as stupid as you might think that is (I bet you would still learn from it). As Reading Railroad said, "Don't take my word for it!" About the video: data acquisition and video are invaluable. I don't have to ride in the car to know what it's doing in turn one - I CAN TELL FROM THE VIDEO! This is ALSO in the book - you can practice WITHOUT BEING ON TRACK - there's a chapter on "Visualization Practice". I gave Eon big props on his driving - his biggest benefit is that he is fast THROUGH the turns which is a VERY hard thing to teach (that's the last part of the turn he should be working on btw), now he needs learn how fast he can go before turn-in, THEN DRIVE THROUGH, then EXIT the turn. ALL OF THIS IS IN THE BOOK! You guys don't know everything and neither do I so please take these criticisms as things that I have been learning and have been having epiphanies about lately as well. You CAN NOT just learn everything on your own by going out there and getting seat time. I would venture to say that you wouldn't learn even 75% of real tricks to competitive racing just by entering lapping days and racing without gaining knowledge from different sources. Ross Bentley even covers it in the book where he talks about practice. You know the old "Practice makes perfect"...well he negates that and tells that "Perfect practice makes perfect". Seat time is expensive and You can be counter-productive in your practice by doing it wrong over and over...think about that for a second. If muscles and hand-eye coordination are trained things, then you CAN be training them wrong by practicing wrong. The book is FULL of things THAT WILL MAKE YOU A FASTER DRIVER...PERIOD. You are both showing your ignorance by downplaying something that you have not even researched to know anything about. If you don't want to read it, FINE, if you don't want advice, FINE I will stop helping and stop offering advice - but good luck beating CARVER in the flooded Pizza Delivery Car! Patrick Yes I understand that you can be doing the total wrong thing and if you practise that then obviously you wouldn't learn anything to better yourself, but we both came from DE, specificaly PCA DE. We learned from the very begining riding with and learning from some of the best drivers around, from LA to TX. I am not stupid enough to believe that I can never stop learning, I just don't see that coming from a book. Some people can learn by reading, as for me.... I like to learn by getting out there and making laps. I might pick up something just from following somebody like Lane, Chris, Gary, or whoever, but I pick up tenths here or there all the time. I'm no expert or I'd be getting ready for daytona right now! I have a long way to go and I know it. As for carver I can't wit to run with him, maybe Ill learn something else ;D What are those hand signals again?
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Post by harrisracing on Jan 22, 2010 16:20:59 GMT -6
More advice: About the book: I just read it again on the flight to Isla Mujeres Mexico last week. It is an incredible book. I ended up giving my copy to the captain of the ship since he races Go-Karts. Everyone who races should read that book. Ross Bentley talks about MANY aspects of racing - yes even the pedals and how to work them and the shifter as stupid as you might think that is (I bet you would still learn from it). As Reading Railroad said, "Don't take my word for it!" About the video: data acquisition and video are invaluable. I don't have to ride in the car to know what it's doing in turn one - I CAN TELL FROM THE VIDEO! This is ALSO in the book - you can practice WITHOUT BEING ON TRACK - there's a chapter on "Visualization Practice". I gave Eon big props on his driving - his biggest benefit is that he is fast THROUGH the turns which is a VERY hard thing to teach (that's the last part of the turn he should be working on btw), now he needs learn how fast he can go before turn-in, THEN DRIVE THROUGH, then EXIT the turn. ALL OF THIS IS IN THE BOOK! You guys don't know everything and neither do I so please take these criticisms as things that I have been learning and have been having epiphanies about lately as well. You CAN NOT just learn everything on your own by going out there and getting seat time. I would venture to say that you wouldn't learn even 75% of real tricks to competitive racing just by entering lapping days and racing without gaining knowledge from different sources. Ross Bentley even covers it in the book where he talks about practice. You know the old "Practice makes perfect"...well he negates that and tells that "Perfect practice makes perfect". Seat time is expensive and You can be counter-productive in your practice by doing it wrong over and over...think about that for a second. If muscles and hand-eye coordination are trained things, then you CAN be training them wrong by practicing wrong. The book is FULL of things THAT WILL MAKE YOU A FASTER DRIVER...PERIOD. You are both showing your ignorance by downplaying something that you have not even researched to know anything about. If you don't want to read it, FINE, if you don't want advice, FINE I will stop helping and stop offering advice - but good luck beating CARVER in the flooded Pizza Delivery Car! Patrick Yes I understand that you can be doing the total wrong thing and if you practise that then obviously you wouldn't learn anything to better yourself, but we both came from DE, specificaly PCA DE. We learned from the very begining riding with and learning from some of the best drivers around, from LA to TX. I am not stupid enough to believe that I can never stop learning, I just don't see that coming from a book. Some people can learn by reading, as for me.... I like to learn by getting out there and making laps. I might pick up something just from following somebody like Lane, Chris, Gary, or whoever, but I pick up tenths here or there all the time. I'm no expert or I'd be getting ready for daytona right now! I have a long way to go and I know it. As for carver I can't wit to run with him, maybe Ill learn something else ;D What are those hand signals again? Ok so a final lesson I guess: 1) The point to pass is a hand out the window or visible from behind indicating the side that you want them to pass you on. This is the one you will need when you see the navy blue PDC in the rearview mirror. 2) If you tap your helmet that means "Bump Draft"...you might need this with one of your other 944 buddies to help gain speed on the straights to try to catch Carver...that or read a book and listen to other people's advice. 3) Apparently I can no longer help you aside from praying and Haiti needs that more right now. ;D Patrick
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Post by turbot on Jan 22, 2010 17:35:08 GMT -6
Don't be so hasty.....I think there's a chapter identifying which pedal is which too...., that kind of info is hard to beat right there.... Let's see....., read or drive, read or drive, read or drive...... Uh....drive... ;D "Dif'rent strokes" as they say......wait, where'd I read that....? And uhm...."there's more than one way to skin a cat....." T You are typing and reading right now...actually just wasting our time talking smack which is just making you sound silly. Unless you CAN be driving right now I would suggest the following: quit typing, drive to Barnes and Noble and spend $15 on Ross Bentley's "Speed Secrets" and read at home. THEN watch the videos again and see how many things you are doing wrong and VISUALIZE them done better. I think it's funny that you think you can't learn by reading books... Patrick Dude, chill, it's only friendly banter but I tell you, if I see the book reference one more time I think my head is gonna explode. If you ran a search using the forum engine, I'd venture a guess that the terms 'Ross Bentley' or 'Speed Secrets' rank in the top three most used text here, right behind the words "a" and "the". I replied to your bullet point outline post as honest as possible. Why you get defensive with the "y'all think you know everything" line because I/We might disagree with something you say is beyond me. Any criticism is always noted and understood....but if somebody offers up a reply, there's no need to get offended. Y'all, and by that I mean you and a couple of members here in your close circle, are always deriding anybody who's not a member of y'all little clique as if, if you didn't come from the auto-cross background or wherever y'all came from (or obviously aren't a fan of Ross Bentley), you just can't possibly be skilled or knowledgeable. Let me share a little of Eon's background with you. He took his first road race instruction at age 16, one on one, two day high performance driving school with the guy who designed and oversaw the construction of CGB. I have the original plans if you ever want to know the widths, radius', etc. From there he had instruction from four PCA racer/instructors, two of which I'd rank right up there with the best drivers I know. One of the two, which Eon spent two days with in a one on one format as a favor to myself, would more than likely be singled out as the most naturally gifted driver on hand at a TWS PCA event of 100-200 drivers and is known in Porsche circles nationally, certainly in all of the southeast. Not to take anything away from our very own region which is chock full of advanced instructors like Wilken, Crosby and LaBorde but Lone Star Region grooms drivers with aspirations to race with specifically that in mind as part of their DE/Race/Mentor program. Y'all knock anyone who comes from DE background regularly as if we are "lesser" accomplished but I'm here to tell you once and for all, that short of an accredited specialized race school i.e. Skip Barber or the like, you won't find a better environment to learn preparation for eventual racing than PCA. What it boils down to is, while the constructive criticism is always welcomed and heeded, we are fully qualified to know the limits from the seats of our own cars without channeling Ross Bentley while watching a video. From back at generic lapping days with us back in the Brain Kemp track run times with absolutely -0- actual road race experience came Paul Burch, who much to y'all chagrin I'm sure, should have broken the preset mantra that y'all regularly spout here. Likewise, same with me......y'all ridiculed the methods that we used in PCA DEs to surround ourselves with pressure from real racers and excused it out of hand time and again to the point where your clique was joking about it between yourselves. I'm sure y'all got a good laugh when y'all talked me into getting the last of my safety gear in time for the Charity Race up until I showed up, didn't put a wheel off all weekend, had a pole position and a win. Eon's coming along the same path, albeit a little later because he just started racing a couple of races ago. But he's going to succeed, this I know. All with nothing more than a DE background and right into the fire. I'm not trying to dis you Patrick, I respect you. But for you to argue that you know more about how a cars feels by watching a video using a method you read about in a book, than the driver who is actually in the car and is qualified by the level of his instruction just makes me laugh. T
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Post by turbot on Jan 22, 2010 17:58:16 GMT -6
More advice: Ross Bentley even covers it in the book where he talks about practice. You know the old "Practice makes perfect"...well he negates that and tells that "Perfect practice makes perfect". This is part is what I have been trying to explain for over a year now. In essence, still, practice does make perfect. Where the disconnect seems to be is, you want to lump us in with other people you might know that followed a lapping format and didn't make the most of it. For all you know (or I because I didn't read any book), we could have followed Ross Bentley to the letter without even knowing it. All I'm saying is, lap for lap and dollar for dollar spent, it's my opinion that we went the right route and used our on track time wisely by mixing it up on track, practicing passing on and off line and surrounding ourselves with racers to mimic the wheel to wheel environment. If others failed to do so with their own time, well, that's their own misfortune. You are both showing your ignorance by downplaying something that you have not even researched to know anything about. If you don't want to read it, FINE, if you don't want advice, FINE I will stop helping and stop offering advice Your critiques and advice are always welcomed Patrick but if you are on the sales list for the Ross Bentley book, no, I wouldn't go counting me as a commission.... ;D - but good luck beating CARVER in the flooded Pizza Delivery Car! Carver hell....., as soon as I make my first race in my own car, I'm coming to bust YOUR ass. T
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Post by Fast Guys on Jan 22, 2010 18:35:09 GMT -6
You are typing and reading right now...actually just wasting our time talking smack which is just making you sound silly. Unless you CAN be driving right now I would suggest the following: quit typing, drive to Barnes and Noble and spend $15 on Ross Bentley's "Speed Secrets" and read at home. THEN watch the videos again and see how many things you are doing wrong and VISUALIZE them done better. I think it's funny that you think you can't learn by reading books... Patrick Dude, chill, it's only friendly banter but I tell you, if I see the book reference one more time I think my head is gonna explode. If you ran a search using the forum engine, I'd venture a guess that the terms 'Ross Bentley' or 'Speed Secrets' rank in the top three most used text here, right behind the words "a" and "the". Let me share a little of Eon's background with you. He took his first road race instruction at age 16, one on one, two day high performance driving school with the guy who designed and oversaw the construction of CGB. T Winston? That explains everything.
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Walt
I raced Once.
Posts: 96
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Post by Walt on Jan 22, 2010 21:26:33 GMT -6
To paraphrase one of the PDC drivers we all know:
I just want to go fast(er)! ;D
We all learn at different rates and prefer different styles of learning. I don't knock anyone's preferred route to enlightenment.
I personally welcome constructive criticism as long as it is given in the proper spirit. Not everyone may feel that way. Of course it is up to each person what they do with what they hear or learn from others (or read in a book).
I know I have a ways to go in learning this craft and I know I am making progress every time I go on the track. I'm not fooling myself, I know I will never be running in a pro circuit making bunches of money.
I am however, having an absolute blast when ever I go out on the track and enjoy the off track time also.
Looking forward to seeing everyone at the track.
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nine44s
I just want to go fast!
I <3 Porsches
Posts: 204
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Post by nine44s on Jan 22, 2010 22:29:37 GMT -6
"We all learn at different rates and prefer different styles of learning. I don't knock anyone's preferred route to enlightenment. I personally welcome constructive criticism as long as it is given in the proper spirit. Not everyone may feel that way. Of course it is up to each person what they do with what they hear or learn from others (or read in a book)." Just for the record I don't have any problems with anyone telling me where Im losing time. I know I'm losing time in a bunch of places, there is a lot more to be had and I'm still working on it in my own ways which seem to be working for me so far. Exactly as you said though people have different ways of learning. I learn better hands on, that's just how it is. If you can learn how to drive better by reading a book then go ahead and read your book, but maybe it's not for everybody that's all I'm sayin' I'm guessing that Carver was probably talking about the bump draft signal more than the passing... But I'll keep it in mind Walt- your picking it up fine! It won't be long before your breaking out of Yellow and your running with us ;D Hopefully not untill next year though huh? Lol
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Post by Fast Guys on Jan 22, 2010 22:43:44 GMT -6
Whatever you do, don't read the book and, for goodness' sake, don't listen to anyone that has. It's not like Ross Bentley makes a living teaching pros how to drive.
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Post by racinmoose on Jan 23, 2010 6:51:59 GMT -6
C'MON MAN !!! Can't we all just get along.
We all can do a great big group hug and sing Koom-Ba-Ya (I know its probably not spelled correctly).
For myself, I will take constructive criticism from anyone,(book readers,de'ers,lapping dayers,certified instructors,spectators,racers,etc).
Mark
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