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GCRS #2
Oct 20, 2010 15:25:14 GMT -6
Post by turbot on Oct 20, 2010 15:25:14 GMT -6
Did I mention that I was helplessly slow at this track....?
;D
T
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GCRS #2
Oct 20, 2010 21:23:12 GMT -6
Post by Fast Guys on Oct 20, 2010 21:23:12 GMT -6
It ain't about how fast you are going. It's about how many G's you are turning and you should be maxing those out on every corner. Uh, ultimately, it's pretty much a sign of a suspension that isn't optimized.....at least for that corner, too stiff a spring or an incorrect bar setting.....sure, cars do it all the time, especially 911s with all the power and weight at the rear digging out of a corner but, I digress.... ;D, four wheel's tire contact is always better than three.... Eon's car used to carry the RF wheel an inch off the deck all the way through T8 at CGB until the weight transferred back at T9....fixed that with springs though... T Wow...I thought you had come to your senses, but... How would too stiff a spring cause you to lift a wheel? That is normally caused by a softer spring, but it isn't necessarily bad. I think you are looking at the 2, 3, and 4 tire equation the wrong way. Using all of the car's weight over the wheels that have the optimum contact patch will yield higher grip than spreading it between the optimized side and the non-optimized side. Friction is a function of the normal force, which is greater with the amount of weight applied to the surface. Wasting weight on the tires with less contact patch on the ground is "wasting" grip. As long as the car doesn't bind coming off the corners, I'll take one that bicycles all day long.
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GCRS #2
Oct 21, 2010 5:03:53 GMT -6
Post by turbot on Oct 21, 2010 5:03:53 GMT -6
Wow...I thought you had come to your senses, but... How would too stiff a spring cause you to lift a wheel? That is normally caused by a softer spring, but it isn't necessarily bad. I think you are looking at the 2, 3, and 4 tire equation the wrong way. Using all of the car's weight over the wheels that have the optimum contact patch will yield higher grip than spreading it between the optimized side and the non-optimized side. Friction is a function of the normal force, which is greater with the amount of weight applied to the surface. Wasting weight on the tires with less contact patch on the ground is "wasting" grip. As long as the car doesn't bind coming off the corners, I'll take one that bicycles all day long. Andy. I think you have been sniffing around Google too long looking for tech articles for your website.... ;D I'll handle this when I get back from my COP paid trip to Knoxville or maybe from my hotel desk... T
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GCRS #2
Oct 21, 2010 6:10:00 GMT -6
Post by Fast Guys on Oct 21, 2010 6:10:00 GMT -6
Yeah, sure...Google. Or as we call it: Louisiana State University School of Friction Understanding and Material Choosing. We also do a fair amount of number counting. I'll give you a head start: F=uN Notice that there is no area in that equation. I'll be patiently waiting.
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GCRS #2
Oct 21, 2010 8:37:04 GMT -6
Post by harrisracing on Oct 21, 2010 8:37:04 GMT -6
It ain't about how fast you are going. It's about how many G's you are turning and you should be maxing those out on every corner. Uh, ultimately, it's pretty much a sign of a suspension that isn't optimized.....at least for that corner, too stiff a spring or an incorrect bar setting.....sure, cars do it all the time, especially 911s with all the power and weight at the rear digging out of a corner but, I digress.... ;D, four wheel's tire contact is always better than three.... Eon's car used to carry the RF wheel an inch off the deck all the way through T8 at CGB until the weight transferred back at T9....fixed that with springs though... T Wow, how did I miss this thread!? T, I must disagree with you (surprise!). And this time I'm going to spare you all of the math, physics, and engineering and talk apples to apples...or pictures to pictures so to speak. In the picture of Phil's car I would actually say it is doing EXACTLY what it's supposed to (all weight on outside driven wheel and front turning wheel). This is what we seek to achieve to make a car really pull the G's and no doubt with the weight distribution, grip, and power of this car, this is what full throttle and full turn looks like. I still have the poster of Crosby's Cup car (your holy grail to speak) doing the EXACT SAME THING. So before you go saying Phil's car is defunct, look at what new Porsche technology is doing in the corners. Check this picture I found in 10 seconds with Google...lead car is ON the gas out of a turn. See the inside wheel? Is his suspension NOT optimized? porschebahn.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/grand-am-va-1.jpgI found some more for you: They are all SCCA National Prep cars and drivers...on FLAT ground - no bumps to blame the pictures on. www.pbase.com/bryanh/image/117442043www.pbase.com/bryanh/image/117442046www.pbase.com/bryanh/image/117442048www.pbase.com/bryanh/image/117442065www.pbase.com/bryanh/image/117614790www.pbase.com/bryanh/image/117614850www.pbase.com/bryanh/image/117614907www.pbase.com/bryanh/image/117615284www.pbase.com/bryanh/image/117334896So take all this for what you want, but I have a feeling that nationally prepped autox cars and Porsche Cup cars are pretty well "optimized". Patrick
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GCRS #2
Oct 21, 2010 12:43:05 GMT -6
Post by Flying Tiger on Oct 21, 2010 12:43:05 GMT -6
Patrick, in that first photo at the bottom of your post, why did that powerful Spec Miata have "Bimmer.haus" on it?
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gmoran
I raced Once.
Posts: 85
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GCRS #2
Oct 21, 2010 13:31:10 GMT -6
Post by gmoran on Oct 21, 2010 13:31:10 GMT -6
I would think it depends on the total weight of the car and how it is being balanced, but, with anything around the weight of a car... I would assume there is some type of curve that shows minimal gains until you start to get up into the hundreds/thousands of pounds. The amount of downforce on your outside tires should be so great that you would want them to be taking the brunt force of the g's pushing you to the outside, kinda like dragging a rubber mat across the floor, then doing it with 150lbs on top of it... One is gonna grip better.
^Just an amateurs view on things
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GCRS #2
Oct 21, 2010 14:39:41 GMT -6
Post by harrisracing on Oct 21, 2010 14:39:41 GMT -6
Patrick, in that first photo at the bottom of your post, why did that powerful Spec Miata have "Bimmer.haus" on it? LOL! Funny! This one is the miata... www.pbase.com/bryanh/image/117615284Red, two-seat, convertible...Duh! Patrick
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944racer
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 152
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GCRS #2
Oct 21, 2010 18:19:08 GMT -6
Post by 944racer on Oct 21, 2010 18:19:08 GMT -6
I just want to race, this is giving me a headache
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GCRS #2
Oct 21, 2010 19:36:11 GMT -6
Post by Fast Guys on Oct 21, 2010 19:36:11 GMT -6
I just want to race, this is giving me a headache Aww... come on!!!! We're just killing time arguing about who's right.
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doug
Zen-master
Posts: 44
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GCRS #2
Oct 21, 2010 21:37:54 GMT -6
Post by doug on Oct 21, 2010 21:37:54 GMT -6
so this is ok? our 80HP beat up old racecar .... spec miata and a porsche.
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GCRS #2
Oct 23, 2010 9:19:29 GMT -6
Post by Fast Guys on Oct 23, 2010 9:19:29 GMT -6
I thought this was going to go Epic... What happened?
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nine44s
I just want to go fast!
I <3 Porsches
Posts: 204
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GCRS #2
Oct 23, 2010 14:24:19 GMT -6
Post by nine44s on Oct 23, 2010 14:24:19 GMT -6
I thought this was going to go Epic... What happened? T is out of town... It's only a matter of time I'm sure
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GCRS #2
Oct 23, 2010 19:49:29 GMT -6
Post by Fast Guys on Oct 23, 2010 19:49:29 GMT -6
I thought this was going to go Epic... What happened? T is out of town... It's only a matter of time I'm sure You know you have to pick a side, right?
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Walt
I raced Once.
Posts: 96
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GCRS #2
Oct 24, 2010 9:10:39 GMT -6
Post by Walt on Oct 24, 2010 9:10:39 GMT -6
I just want to race, this is giving me a headache Aww... come on!!!! We're just killing time arguing about who's right. According to my wife, I'm always right. OR did she say that I think I'm always right? Is there a difference? :-)
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