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Post by turbot on Jun 9, 2011 14:06:55 GMT -6
Thread for anybody that wants to tag along....will be posting pics of our second SP2 car, basically a twin to Eon's in scheme, just different color, which cosmetically is a twin to the long term 944T car....so, I guess it's a triplet, not a twin... ;D Car started as an all out track project for a friend/customer, stripped for track and had engine/trans/suspension all installed and ready to go......until he lost a cylinder in his own twin, and I mean identical, 1986 944T street car. We transplanted the engine from this car into his street car and he lost interest so he gave me the chassis free and clear. All the turbo specific stuff stripped, I sanded, masked and sprayed the Alpine White base color of our other cars in the engine bay. Have another engine, 54K original miles from an '84 but ran across an '88 automatic car close by in Lafayette with not many more miles on the clock. Just my own personal opinion; but the autos make better engine donors because the engines have seen less time at WOT and all the potential miss shifts, over revs, etc generally make for a less abused donor engine. Eon and his buddy Don (building his own car at the Bat Cave) scooped it up for me one Friday and I got busy stripping what I wanted.....RF fender went on Eon's wreck fix and the radiator and LF fender went onto Frankie. I used the '88 NA doors so I used the '86 944T door on Frankie too. Got the engine out of the auto, disassembled it, made a plan for the assembly and have the parts for machine work and coatings all coming together while I work on the body. Entire car needs to be Alpine White followed by the stripe scheme that is on the other orange and green cars.....this one will be bright yellow. Was making killer progress in hopes to get this thing test sorted before the opening race this season, then ran into this last night -   Some goober that must have been sponsored by 'Bondo' did a, and I use the term as lightly as possible...."repair" on the left rear quarter and rocker that defies belief. There was as much as 3/4 inch thick of bondo....and yeah, I mean the brand Bondo, the cheap crap sold at Auto Zone that cures to a semi permeable sponge like consistency at best (  ). Never even dawned on these jokers to knock some of the dent out from the easy access right inside the hatch, or even make any semblance of an attempt with even a screw grip (hey, it's right on the same AZ shelf next to the bondo) slide hammer puller. AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH......! Anyways....big stumbling block....but I have it coming along again now. More pics later, T |
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Post by Flying Tiger on Jun 9, 2011 15:10:31 GMT -6
So, T, what do you expect the new car to be capable of turning at CGB? Will it be a Spec Porsche or what? Educate me on what this car will be, compared to the one Eon's driving now!
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Post by turbot on Jun 9, 2011 18:10:04 GMT -6
So, T, what do you expect the new car to be capable of turning at CGB? Will it be a Spec Porsche or what? Educate me on what this car will be, compared to the one Eon's driving now! Same car Reg....., Porsche Club Racing, SP2 SP = SPec and the "2" is specific to level of spec car. SP2* allows the 16" wheels that 944s came with and rear coil overs where SP1 allows only the 15" wheels and retain factory torsion bar/shock rear suspension. 944s had two offset formulas to define track width through the car's evolution known as "early", 83-85.5, (the half year was due to a Porsche/Audi labor strike dispute), and "late", from 1985.5 all the way through the evolution of the 968. For some reason, probably the more limited production, Porsche kept the early offset through all of 1986 on only the 944 Turbo cars. This is what I started with for this build. So I am using all the suspension components from the 1988 NA donor car to give me the same offset wheel choices as Eon's car and my other 944T. Other than rain drip moldings and front inside wheel wells, the bare tubs are all the same from 1983-1989 in the 2.5L NA and turbo format, including up to 1991 for the 944S2 3.0L 16V S2s like Hamza, Carter and Kerry Brown have. Very little difference actually even through the 968 bare tub-wise. So, with that background Reg, I basically updated an early offset 1986 944 Turbo to late using a 1988 car's suspension, yanked the turbo engine/trans and will use a 2.5L 8V engine. Using coilovers in the rear and 16" wheels classifies my new car as SP2 just like the gray #142 I drive sometimes, Eon, Lane, Gary, Cannon, Gobert, Goddard and even Max (his car carries weight penalty for the extra 200cc displacement for PCA - not GCRS). If you think this was confusing up until now, it gets worse.... ;D 944s split from PCA into several racing series' over time so PCA's attempt to corral them all back, each having developed their own specific configurations, was to open SP to all cars but.....there are differing configs even within SP2. SP2 "stock", SP2 "prep 1" and SP2 "prep 3" each allowing and disallowing different changes. Ha ha ha, and if you think THAT was confusing......there is also the aforementioned SP1, stock with t-bars intact and 15" wheels and also SP3 which they squeezed the 2 year only production 944S, a limited 16V 2.5 that makes 40-50 more bhp than us, the later evolution of that car, the 944S2 16V 3.0L and also the 944 Turbo cars and 968 bodied cars with the 16V 3.0L engines with "variocam". Whew....., I need a life.... ;D Forget all that though....car is same as Eon's and I expect 1.24.xx out of it, conditions dependent of course. T |
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Post by Flying Tiger on Jun 9, 2011 19:04:28 GMT -6
Great explanation! Now, using an 8v engine, how do expect to compete with the 16 v engines in red bracket racing? Can an 8v win in that competition?
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Post by turbot on Jun 9, 2011 20:43:03 GMT -6
Great explanation! Now, using an 8v engine, how do expect to compete with the 16 v engines in red bracket racing? Can an 8v win in that competition? Driving Reg,...... if you have a platform that has capability of running at or near the break-out time at full tilt, you drive 100%, as error free as possible and leave little to no room between you and the break-out pace for people who are peddling cars with more potential driving at 90% to slot in and be comfortable. Most are so accustomed to driving at whatever level it takes to win/podium, driving well within the driver and car safe zone, they spin and make multiple mistakes when pushed past that level. Key is to go fast enough to either leave no room between you and the break-out time or pressure those in front of you to make mistakes. True that some cars should not be hanging around the red bracket and that's probably the only fault in the bracket style format we have but this was addressed by a rule change last year....two break outs and you move on to GT class but I'd rather keep them all there to keep the class populated. T |
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Post by Fast Guys on Jun 10, 2011 5:33:49 GMT -6
Great explanation! Now, using an 8v engine, how do expect to compete with the 16 v engines in red bracket racing? Can an 8v win in that competition? Driving Reg,...... if you have a platform that has capability of running at or near the break-out time at full tilt, you drive 100%, as error free as possible and leave little to no room between you and the break-out pace for people who are peddling cars with more potential driving at 90% to slot in and be comfortable. Most are so accustomed to driving at whatever level it takes to win/podium, driving well within the driver and car safe zone, they spin and make multiple mistakes when pushed past that level. Key is to go fast enough to either leave no room between you and the break-out time or pressure those in front of you to make mistakes. True that some cars should not be hanging around the red bracket and that's probably the only fault in the bracket style format we have but this was addressed by a rule change last year....two break outs and you move on to GT class but I'd rather keep them all there to keep the class populated. T Who are you going to hire to drive it? ;D Why not just finish that Turbo car and show us that you aren't scared to death of it... |
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Post by turbot on Jun 10, 2011 5:49:45 GMT -6
Spot welder used to attach the studs used to actually pull out the bashed in 1/4 and rocker panels. Tool is kind of like an electronic nail gun where a momentary voltage spot welds the studs to cleaned metal,  This slide hammer has a head on it that the studs insert into, with a knurled wheel that grips the studs increasingly, the more pull force that is applied. Goal is to get the metal as close to original dimensions as possible so as thin a skin of body filler as possible is used. I probably shave 2-3 pounds of weight here just by getting rid of the gallon of bondo that was on the car...., ;D  T |
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Post by Flying Tiger on Jun 10, 2011 6:12:37 GMT -6
Bracket racing/PCA racing look to be fun. How do the 944s handle, compared to the SMs? I expect the upkeep and repair costs of the Porsches is higher than SM, though. I wish I could run my Miata in both classes, SM and Bracket, but unless our SM population grows that can't happen. I'm just looking for as much seat time as I can get!
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Post by turbot on Jun 10, 2011 6:50:16 GMT -6
Who are you going to hire to drive it? ;D Hire....?.heh heh, all part of the plan Andy, all part of the plan. I have been pushing the old gray car around long enough to know where I'll be with a car that unloads off the trailer with two more seconds of potential in it. Over the last season and a half, I have watched Eon progress to much deserved accolades and respect of fellow competitors, crewed his car while he set track records and generally supported him the latter stages any way I can while I didn't even have a car in shape to drive. I'm building a car that is equal to his. For reasons stated above.... he is my goal and target. It has always been that way between us and if prior history of the things we have been involved in together is any indicator....and I'm not too old yet ( ;D), I'm going to beat him on occasion. There will be no need for close or far reaching comparisons between who's driving what when I erase the disparity between the two cars we drive and if he beats me fair and square, then he will know he earned it and I'll be the first to tell him, just like always. I'll expect the same mutual nod of respect from you in y'all 944 as you come off track exiting through the cones into the paddock while I'm already peeling off my driver suit. Hadn't talked to you in a while, but I heard Eon nipped you at the kart track....? Wasn't it kart experience that was your background....? Why not just finish that Turbo car and show us that you aren't scared to death of it... Because I already know what my mechanical abilities are. I want to work on myself as a driver. Propping up my ego with enough hp to mask driver errors does not interest me. For the time being, I want to race against people in the same type car and the 944 NA is the logical choice. It populates the majority of our bracket grid and I don't have any desire to put hard earned time and effort into a Mazda Miata. I drove a 944T with enough power to light the tires at a 40 mph roll for several years on street and track, fender to fender at 160mph in places that would incriminate me ( ;D) until the person next to me waived off for safety concerns. Trust me Andy, I know people who are everything from foolishly brave to having more than one screw loose on this side of the river and I have no doubt that I could scare the living sh!t out of you if you were brave enough to be my passenger back in the day. Eventually, we'll probably land a 944T for Eon. I plan on racing against him until I'm retired and gray. We'll either build this car as a GT and I'll already have this turbo project ready for that or I'll back the car up to PCA E class spec to match his if that's what he has in mind. T |
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Post by turbot on Jun 10, 2011 7:33:17 GMT -6
Bracket racing/PCA racing look to be fun. How do the 944s handle, compared to the SMs? I expect the upkeep and repair costs of the Porsches is higher than SM, though. I wish I could run my Miata in both classes, SM and Bracket, but unless our SM population grows that can't happen. I'm just looking for as much seat time as I can get! Reggie...., outside of being able to run with as many "like" cars locally as you already do with the Miatas, there are of course, SCCA and NASA on power to weight, PCA like car vs. like car scored in class and also there are 944 SPEC and 944 Cup which are both their own entities and pretty well populated. 944 Cup nationals are usually at a major track, desirable to run on at least once like Daytona, Indianapolis F1 circuit, etc. From what I have seen of the buy-in and selling prices of Miatas I have seen posted, you could eventually sell that car after building a 944 and have a few thousand left in your pocket afterwards. T |
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Post by turbot on Jun 10, 2011 8:17:07 GMT -6
Inside is pretty much prepped for paint and cage thanks to the car donor, buddy Dr. Z so as I'm doing individual panels in the base white, any leftover extra mixed paint goes onto the floor and interior....car was originally slate gray metallic, torque tube tunnel is seen painted already in this pic,  Roof,  T |
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Post by Flying Tiger on Jun 10, 2011 9:58:05 GMT -6
You mean: I could build a SP S2 ( I think I'd want the 16v version) and sell my SM for enough to pay for the SP? If that be the case, tell me about handling of the 944s, how they compare with SMs. I really like the handling of my SM, and I like how cheap and easy it is to repair it, too. So how do repairs/maintenance of SP compare to SM?
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Post by turbot on Jun 10, 2011 11:59:54 GMT -6
You mean: I could build a SP S2 ( I think I'd want the 16v version) and sell my SM for enough to pay for the SP? If that be the case, tell me about handling of the 944s, how they compare with SMs. I really like the handling of my SM, and I like how cheap and easy it is to repair it, too. So how do repairs/maintenance of SP compare to SM? LOL, I aint gonna dog you on comprehension skills because that post you replied to was so d@mned confusing..... ;D S2, being a specific car that Porsche made....still a 944. SP2 is a spec class that our cars fall into. 944S2, the 16V 3.0L with 208 bhp would fall into both SP 3 (not racing directly against our cars) and as an alternative upon registration, the 944S2 also falls under Porsche Club "E" class where Henry Carter and Mike Hamza race at PCA events. Paul Loupe has an '89 944S2 at his shop that used to belong to Eon. He used it as a street car while we were repairing an accident he had in his '87 944S. The engine is already out of the car and I believe the block and pistons were damaged but there is a replacement block to go with the car for $2500 I think. Reggie, at your driving level, I'd guess you would easily break out of red bracket with this car and be forced to join the GT3 group.....3.0 liter and under normally aspirated cars. To answer the rest, on the SP2 like ours, 2.5L....., a head gasket for instance, probably around a $500 job, parts and labor. Brake rotors, $50 each. Used working transmission w/o LSD, $500. Used running engine, $500. Fender, $125, door $125, timing belt/water pump job, $450. Radiator $150, wheel bearings $25 front inner and outer, rear $45. CV joints, $100....only thing that's sort of out of norm expensive compared to other cars is the clutch. The set is $500, disc, pressure plate and throw out bearing but that's for factory OE Sachs stuff, plus labor. Clutch being good for 3-4 seasons. You can buy a running 5 speed with 120K mi. or less for $2000. T |
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Post by Flying Tiger on Jun 10, 2011 13:22:12 GMT -6
Those prices don't seem too bad, though I would have to pay labor for the heavy work-tranny replacement, clutch, heads, etc. I might be able to figure out brake pad and rotor replacements now that I have learned a little on the SM. LOL I don't think a used motor would be much good without a complete re-manufacture and head job, do you? GT classes are pretty fast, so I would want to drive one of those SPs before deciding whether to jump in with both feet. Does anyone around here have a rental car in the SP2 or SP3 category?
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Post by turbot on Jun 10, 2011 13:54:19 GMT -6
Those prices don't seem too bad, though I would have to pay labor for the heavy work-tranny replacement, clutch, heads, etc. I might be able to figure out brake pad and rotor replacements now that I have learned a little on the SM. LOL I don't think a used motor would be much good without a complete re-manufacture and head job, do you? GT classes are pretty fast, so I would want to drive one of those SPs before deciding whether to jump in with both feet. Does anyone around here have a rental car in the SP2 or SP3 category? Yeah Reggie, you could definitely do brakes and rotors and some of the other maintenance. I have talked people through way more complicated things on these cars step by step through PMs and email. I'll have my car out for a test day in the next month or two and you are welcomed to try it out. You can get these things dead neutral, under or over steer pretty easily, whatever your preference. Weight distribution-wise, it don't get any better, transmission/diff are in the same housing at the rear axle. I just threw a price out there for an engine to give you an idea. Overhaul gasket/seal kit, $150-175, ring set, $80, rod bearings, $60. Heck, you can buy a whole non running car (cranks/won't start) for $500 and you have a spare engine to build slowly over time as a spare and two spare fenders and doors and an extra transmission...., the trans was by Audi and rarely fails catastrophically. There's a blue '87 5 speed, cranks but doesn't start north of BR for $1500 as a platform. T |
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