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Post by harrisracing on Mar 12, 2010 8:36:49 GMT -6
I have quoted the rulebook below and bolded the section that applies to this situation. The problem here is that 308 doesn't agree that it was his fault, therefore both drivers get the 13. The ONLY way that one of the two cars in a two car collision can avoid a 13 after contact is from one driver totally taking the blame. To ensure better racing for all of us I recommend being a real man and taking the heat when you are at fault.
I'm guessing that Mitch was offered the chance to take blame in this situation and while it might not sound fair to Shane, that's the way the rules are written and the resultant agreement that all of us racers take when we get on track that we trust the other driver isn't going to "put us in the wall" when they get the chance. Now, I highly doubt Mitch wanted to put Shane in the wall when he tried to take away the pass (very poorly might I add), but that's racing sometimes...and that part of it sucks totally.
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Penalty for Damage or Bad Conduct by Drivers - The 13/13 Rule
Anyone found to be at fault for causing damage to another car, while either on the track or in the pits during the event, will be placed on probation under the 13/13 Rule and immediately disqualified from further competition on that day. If during the 13-month period following the issuance of the 13/13 probation, the driver is found at fault for another infraction under this rule, the driver will be suspended from participating for 13 months. If a person returns after being suspended for 13 months and causes another incident, they may be refused entry in all future GCRS events at the discretion of the Chief Steward.
(Often, “fault” in a racing accident is shared because neither driver drove to avoid the incident nor allowed sufficient road to the other driver. Drivers are expected that one may have to alter their line to prevent contact and/or damage. Also, there are no set criteria to determine what constitutes a “pass”. Each situation will be evaluated upon its own merits, and fault assigned accordingly.)
Cheating
Any instance of cheating shall result in an immediate imposition of the 13/13 Rule.
Race Committee:
The Race Committee shall be comprised of:
* Race Director * Chief Steward * Chief Corner Marshall * A licensed driver to be chosen by consensus of the Race Director, Chief Steward and Chief Corner Marshall * A licensed driver to be chosen by consensus of the Race Director, Chief Steward and Chief Corner Marshall
At the GCRS, the responsibility for conduct goes to the Race Committee for review; the race committee has authority to reduce racing privileges. In incidents involving car to car contact, the Race Committee will determine any drivers at fault and such drivers will be placed in the 13/13 Probation. Statements will be taken from drivers involved, corner workers, and, time permitting, other drivers observing the actual incident before a judgment is reached. After a final decision, there is no appeal process.
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Post by Fast Guys on Mar 12, 2010 9:32:39 GMT -6
Who are the committee members that reviewed this incident?
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Post by Flying Tiger on Mar 12, 2010 10:42:26 GMT -6
"Anyone found to be at fault for causing damage to another car, while either on the track or in the pits during the event, will be placed on probation under the 13/13 Rule and immediately disqualified from further competition on that day."
With that language, it appears to this lawyer that BOTH drivers could have been disqualified from "further competition on that day", which would INCLUDE finishing the race in which the accident occured. Therefore, why wouldn't both drivers be immediately disqualified and earn ZERO points for the race, or only earn ONE point each for participation. I interpret the rule to mean "disqualified" from the race in which the accident happened because any other interpretation would enable a driver to benefit from his own fault (even accidental fault) in causing another car to be wrecked, but benefitting from his own fault that caused that accident because the wrecked car was so badly damaged that it cannot safely participate to the end of the race. After all, the accident occured before the race concluded, so the conclusion was "further competition on that day".
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944racer
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 152
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Post by 944racer on Mar 12, 2010 11:19:53 GMT -6
Thanks Patrick for having the rules so handy. I've also had a conversation with Chris C. who echos your interpretation of the rules. If that is the case THEN LET'S CHANGE THE RULES!
I'm sure we all feel we are man enough to take the blame when we feel blame is due; but there are always going to be times when we feel that we were not at fault and the powers that be just made a mistake in issuing blame. Happened to me at Hallett last October, I got the 13, the other guy didn't; I still disagree with the steward's decision, but respect it and take my medicine. At the same time the other guy doesn't have a 13 just because I won't own up to my 'mistake'. Let's face it, we all have opinions and tend to be just a little biased when it comes to ourselves.
Once a decision is made that one driver is at fault, that should be the end of it, period. If you don't agree for whatever reason, deal with it and move on; but don't penalize the innocent for your obstinance!
All that being said I disagree with the interpretation of the rules that both drivers must agree. The bold area, as I read it, is saying that there may be incidents where both drivers are at fault. And I've seen cases where both drivers in a two vehicle incident have gotten a 13.
In my opinion we definitely need to visit this rule in the off season and have a more clear vision of how 13's are reviewed and administered.
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Post by Fast Guys on Mar 12, 2010 11:45:45 GMT -6
Gary, I agree with you. Somebody needs to assign blame and be the final word. Our current situation just breeds animosity.
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Post by harrisracing on Mar 12, 2010 11:54:20 GMT -6
"Anyone found to be at fault for causing damage to another car, while either on the track or in the pits during the event, will be placed on probation under the 13/13 Rule and immediately disqualified from further competition on that day." With that language, it appears to this lawyer that BOTH drivers could have been disqualified from "further competition on that day", which would INCLUDE finishing the race in which the accident occured. Therefore, why wouldn't both drivers be immediately disqualified and earn ZERO points for the race, or only earn ONE point each for participation. I interpret the rule to mean "disqualified" from the race in which the accident happened because any other interpretation would enable a driver to benefit from his own fault (even accidental fault) in causing another car to be wrecked, but benefitting from his own fault that caused that accident because the wrecked car was so badly damaged that it cannot safely participate to the end of the race. After all, the accident occured before the race concluded, so the conclusion was "further competition on that day". Reggie, VERY GOOD POINT. I move that both cars should have been black-flagged and disqualified as well, afterall that part is also clearly stated in the rules. So, in this situation disqualification would probably result in zero points for the event for both drivers...makes sense to me. Patrick
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Post by harrisracing on Mar 12, 2010 11:58:05 GMT -6
Gary, I agree with you. Somebody needs to assign blame and be the final word. Our current situation just breeds animosity. I also agree with you guys. If person is found at fault by evidence and interviews from the race committee, then they should be the only person to receive the 13, and we should move to change this for next season...but as for THIS season well the rules were there already regarding agreement to who's at fault (I know I actually read this somewhere, or heard it in a meeting...just need to find the notes). Patrick
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Post by harrisracing on Mar 12, 2010 12:08:01 GMT -6
I thought all of this sounded familiar...we still haven't come to a conclusion though. circuitgrandbayou.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=a7e&action=display&thread=38&page=1All of the conversation on the above thread talk about people diving over on people in turns...no one even thought about who "owns" the turn on a straight? we need to propose writings and adopt a solid rule that everyone can vote on. So, lawyers, what can you draft up? Patrick
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troym
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 145
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Post by troym on Mar 12, 2010 12:12:33 GMT -6
I agree with Gary's post above. The rule needs to be reviewed and clarified in the off season. When I read the rule, especially the bold section, I don't see explicit language stating that if neither driver takes the blame, they both get a 13. It does refer to "shared fault" and "assigned fault", but I take this to mean fault is assigned either to both drivers or one driver by the race committee. I iterpret this to mean once that decision has been made by the committee, then any or all parties can agree to disagree, but the decision is final and as Gary says the affected drivers have to "take their medicine".
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944racer
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 152
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Post by 944racer on Mar 12, 2010 13:00:00 GMT -6
Gary, I agree with you. Somebody needs to assign blame and be the final word. Our current situation just breeds animosity. I also agree with you guys. If person is found at fault by evidence and interviews from the race committee, then they should be the only person to receive the 13, and we should move to change this for next season...but as for THIS season well the rules were there already regarding agreement to who's at fault (I know I actually read this somewhere, or heard it in a meeting...just need to find the notes). Patrick The actual rules posted on the Circuit Grand Bayou website are errored out. But I was assured that they state this rule about agreeing to to fault or both get 13's. Water under T's bridge. We are in the offseason (I don't know if we can get 13's in the Charity race since it's not part of the series this year) so let's just lobby to revisit the rules. I'm sure there will be meetings and we will have the ability to give our input.
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shane
I want to race
Posts: 29
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Post by shane on Mar 12, 2010 13:05:39 GMT -6
The best thing that can come out of this situation is that we improve our racing organization. I just want to have fun, be safe, and be fair. I hope we can improve the wording of the rules over the off season.
The good news is I am purchasing a very good race ready Specmiata and will be back on the track for the Charity race!!
As for my feelings about Mitch #308: I have no intentions of retaliation or getting even on the track, but his arrogance concerns me for the safety of myself and my fellow racers. The finding of the race committee are clear and he still thinks I should have lifted/braked to avoid his block. Maybe I should post the pics of post race damage to both cars for all to see.
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Post by Fast Guys on Mar 12, 2010 13:15:26 GMT -6
The best thing that can come out of this situation is that we improve our racing organization. I just want to have fun, be safe, and be fair. I hope we can improve the wording of the rules over the off season. The good news is I am purchasing a very good race ready Specmiata and will be back on the track for the Charity race!! As for my feelings about Mitch #308: I have no intentions of retaliation or getting even on the track, but his arrogance concerns me for the safety of myself and my fellow racers. The finding of the race committee are clear and he still thinks I should have lifted/braked to avoid his block. Maybe I should post the pics of post race damage to both cars for all to see. There are plenty of pictures online for people to see. You guys were axle to axle at the time of impact. You couldn't have missed him if you tried.
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lane
I just want to go fast!
Posts: 164
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Post by lane on Mar 12, 2010 13:25:20 GMT -6
Although I'm not a fan of this " shared 13 rule " if neither party admits fault, it has been around for a long time I do believe. Apparently we've never had an issue with this except for now. I do want to go on record that the rule needs improvising. If the powers that be said its your fault then we should respect that decision and try to learn from it and then find the offending party and settle it. Just kiddin about the last part.
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Post by klanasa1 on Mar 13, 2010 17:41:04 GMT -6
Shane - Glad to hear that you will be back and I am looking forward to racing you at the charity event.
The top three cars in the SM class are currently serving 13's......should be interesting.
Keith
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shane
I want to race
Posts: 29
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Post by shane on Mar 13, 2010 20:02:14 GMT -6
Shane - Glad to hear that you will be back and I am looking forward to racing you at the charity event. The top three cars in the SM class are currently serving 13's......should be interesting. Keith I am sure you will agree, but I will not alter my driving at all. This is the 1st time in 5 years that I have had contact, so I don't think the problem is us. New car is a 1.8, so we will slow the start to a snails pace and let the torque of a 1.8 jump the 1.6 on the start. Look forward to you getting back on the track and hope the new addition to the family is well. Shane
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