NASA Rules

[944racer]

Check out this link to the NASA rules. www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

Check out Blocking in On Course Conduct pg. 109
And On Course Accidents in Appendix A pg. 112

I tend to agree with all the scenarios in the Description of on course accidents. What say you?

As far as blocking goes, I've heard two very different explanations. The one listed by NASA where you cannot make two consecutive line changes.

I've also had long conversations with National PCA folks who define blocking as using ANY line that is not your NORMAL line; which I find much more restrictive and harder to catch by the corner workers, drivers or people in the towers.

A perfect example is turn 4 at NPR...C@GB. My normal line is outside unless there is traffic behind me, then I take the inside line. However, I take the inside line immediately after my track out of 3.

By the NASA definition, this perfectly OK as long as I did not start to use the outside line, then switch to inside. But by PCA's definition simply using a different line than 'normal' constitutes a block. Another argument I've used with the PCA group is that, in traffic, my 'normal' line IS the defensive line. They disagree, but on the other hand, I've never been flagged for blocking using the defensive line.

In other words, I think that the PCA blocking definition is much more difficult to enforce, while the NASA definition is very easy to see and enforce. What say you?

And more importantly as we move forward, does our series even flag for blocking? If they do, what is the correct definition? I obviously much prefer the two consecutive line definition.

[fast55]

I agree with the NASA rules, I also feel that we could benefit from adopting the NASA guidlines for passing/"incidents". Their rules are well defined while ours are fuzzy

[Fast Guys]

Blocking is the NASA definition, not the PCA version as you have stated. Running a defensive line is part of racing. That is why there is a premium placed on qualifying time.

The lead car picks his line. It is up to the passing car to make the pass using what's left. Once the passing car has presented himself, i.e. occupies a space at a similar position on the track adjacent to the lead car, the lead car is required to respect the line of the passing car.

[944racer]

Jan 2, 2010 17:36:05 GMT -6 Fast Guys said:

Blocking is the NASA definition, not the PCA version as you have stated. Running a defensive line is part of racing. That is why there is a premium placed on qualifying time.

The lead car picks his line. It is up to the passing car to make the pass using what's left. Once the passing car has presented himself, i.e. occupies a space at a similar position on the track adjacent to the lead car, the lead car is required to respect the line of the passing car.

Well said. And the last part is a very good definition of 'racing room'. NASA defines it as 3/4 of a car width. For future reference I prefer at least 1 car width ;D

[fast55]

"presented himself, i.e. occupies a space at a similar position on the track adjacent to the lead car" = fuzz

"Once the trailing car has its front wheel next to the driver of the other vehicle, it is considered that the trailing car has a right to be there." = clear

[Fast Guys]

Ok, I agree that your definition is more clear, but it leaves the door open for people to chop you in corners or any time you attempt a pass. I was hit (tapped) in a race when my front wheel was even with the back wheel of the other car. We were going through the turn and I was on the inside. He didn't realize I was there and cut to the inside to make a move on somebody else, but my car was already occupying the space and I was setting up the pass.

Given your definition, I would have had to back off, even though there was plenty of real estate for both of us. Given how some of us like to race in the corners, I don't see how the front-wheel-to-driver definition will do anything other than force us into single file turns, which is boring.

If there is somebody next to you, give them room. If they are completely in front or behind you, pick your line. How's that?

[fast55]

It's not my definition, I lifted it from the NASA rulebook, as has BMW club racing. SCCA may have a similar rule but I don't have the attention span required to read that rule book. Believe me, there is much more passing going on at a NASA or BMW race than at Grand Bayou, mostly due to the larger fields, but I personally felt more confident racing side by side with those organizations. Wouldn't you prefer that the driver you were passing should know exactly when you have the corner? By your definition, I shouldn't have had a 13/13 last year, but I left the swirlies behind the other driver's door so I accepted the blame.
I had a very close call during the WARM-UP for our last race, and by the NASA definition, I had the corner.

[Fast Guys]

I don't think anyone has the corner until the pass sticks. If you can hit the guy by changing your line laterally, you have a responsibility to give him some room. I realize that the way it is written says otherwise, but their definition seems to assign blame in an incident rather than prescribe etiquette. The main problem that I have with the rule is that some people brake much deeper than others and they could skirt responsibility for unmakable dive bombs because they would make contact in front of the driver's door.

The real elephant in the room is people being unaware of what is going on around their car. It is an illness plaguing GCRS.

[944racer]

Jan 3, 2010 9:25:18 GMT -6 fast55 said:

"presented himself, i.e. occupies a space at a similar position on the track adjacent to the lead car" = fuzz

"Once the trailing car has its front wheel next to the driver of the other vehicle, it is considered that the trailing car has a right to be there." = clear

It seems to me that there has to be a standard definition of when the overtaking car 'has' the corner or has the right to be there. The NASA definition is pretty universally accepted.

However, whether you 'have' the corner or not, common sense should dictate your actions. If the car you are overtaking doesn't see you and you press your advantage, he/she will cut you off as they turn for the apex. At that point what good is it that you 'had the corner'. Experience and seat time are definitely the only ways that track awareness improves. It's always good to know who you are racing with. If you don't know the other driver or his/her experience, don't take the chance. Back out and wait for another opportunity.

Rules and definitions are there to try to regulate behavior on the track and to objectively determine fault when an incident occurs...we need that to maintain our relatively clean racing record as a race series. But when the rubber hits the road, experience, patience, and common sense, coupled with an awareness of those rules, are what we need to use as we make those split second decisions.

[ccarver]

Well put Gary.
See you guys track side.
Carver

[hpmowog]

The NASA definition is quite clear, but it is not the universal definition. SCCA's rule book is pretty vague about it, but the SCCA court of appeals has ruled pretty consistently that, although the primary responsibility for executing a safe pass lies with the driver of the overtaking car, once the overtaking car has established overlap (any amount of overlap) with the lead car there is shared responsibility and both drivers must leave each other "racing room". Following the NASA rules literally, the lead driver can chop the corner and actually cause contact but still not be found at fault as long as the overtaking car had not gotten the front wheels even with the lead car's door. By SCCA's interpretation, you only "own" the corner if you are completely clear of the trailing car.

[Fast Guys]

Jan 4, 2010 9:36:44 GMT -6 hpmowog said:

The NASA definition is quite clear, but it is not the universal definition. SCCA's rule book is pretty vague about it, but the SCCA court of appeals has ruled pretty consistently that, although the primary responsibility for executing a safe pass lies with the driver of the overtaking car, once the overtaking car has established overlap (any amount of overlap) with the lead car there is shared responsibility and both drivers must leave each other "racing room". Following the NASA rules literally, the lead driver can chop the corner and actually cause contact but still not be found at fault as long as the overtaking car had not gotten the front wheels even with the lead car's door. By SCCA's interpretation, you only "own" the corner if you are completely clear of the trailing car.

That is what I have been trying to say. Thanks.

I really think we should be pushing more towards the SCCA definition than the NASA version. We don't want anyone believing that they "own" a corner because of presenting a pass. We need to give each other room and race clean.

[turbot]

Well.....I'm gonna go ahead and call shotgun on all corners ahead of time so there won't be any confusion.... ;D

T

[Fast Guys]

Jan 4, 2010 9:51:16 GMT -6 turbot said:

Well.....I'm gonna go ahead and call shotgun on all corners ahead of time so there won't be any confusion.... ;D

T

I don't think you need to worry about it. ZZZIIIINNNNGGG!!!!!!

[turbot]

Jan 4, 2010 9:53:21 GMT -6 Fast Guys said:

Jan 4, 2010 9:51:16 GMT -6 turbot said:

Well.....I'm gonna go ahead and call shotgun on all corners ahead of time so there won't be any confusion.... ;D

T

I don't think you need to worry about it. ZZZIIIINNNNGGG!!!!!!

LOLZ X the national deficit....!

I make my fair share of passes......you want references....?

;D

T